Large Map and New Civilizations are now playable

[a pen-dragon]

I did finish my Malay game. Key points:
1) Islam started spreading by itself around 1350.
2) By spreading it manually and whipping all requirements UHV #3 was actually quite straight forward.
3) The commerce Goal completed itself quite easily with 12 turns to spare.
4) In my Games the Mongols did expand just in time to trade me Wine. I did still miss UHV#2 because I came up with the Australia Idea to late.

- Run some culture to grab those third ring tiles earlier, therefore acquiring more trade routes earlier.

5) In my experience you do not need to control theese tiles to get additional trade routes.

Spoiler Comprehensive Malay strategy :

(Reference turns for Normal speed)
Two key thoughts: For UHV#1 around 100 commerce from trade routes on average, 130 for a bit of leeway. Thus you will actually have a decent economy with 10+ cities of size <=4. City size only starts to influence trade route commerce above size 12 in BtS, and I think it did not change here. So you do not actually want to grow on marginal (coast 2,2) tiles. This will actually hurt your economy due to increasing maintenence.
1) SIP for Capital, use one Buddhist Missionary. (turn 220)
2) switch to clergy, you will want to do some building. This is the best occasion to switch civics due to no anarchy. Stay in the other civics for the rest of the game.
3) second city 1NW of Singapur to use the fish, spread Buddism and Hinduism. (this city will need to whip at least 2 cathedrals, try also to build a forge here, but you will want food, so no specialist)
4) immediately send out starting ships: one to China/Japan/Korea, the other to India/Persia/Arabia. Keep them there for contact.
5) Research plan: IMHO there are only 2 key techs: Steel and Compass. Steel to bulid one Forge and get a GE to hurry one of the cathedrals (though not necessary). Compass to pass through the capes to Australia and settle near Silver.
6) Build order for fisrt 2 cities: Granary, Aqueduct, Settlers, UB. Whip whenever a city reaches size 4. Build/Whip one Galley, maybe one Worker, two should suffice. There are enough happiness resources. My city layout (with key happiness resources):

7) As soon as you meet someone, try to open borders. If they are not friendly enough, gift them Techs/Money until they are. Key targets: China, Mongols for trade routes, Arabia, Mughals for trade routes and Islam spread.
8) You will want to be nice to everybody, thus you do not actually need to build units.
9) Try to have about 12 cities. I did reach 11 at turn 280. If China is collapsed you want around 15 cities. Try to keep your trade route commerce income above 100/turn. Keep stability above Collapsing by groing core cities.
10) If no one collapses the turn 270 part of UHV#1 almost completes itself. Then you have 60 turns for 6400 , hence about 100 /turn as reference in this period. This will get you UHV#1
11) Try to bulid a Forge in a city around turn 270, run an engineer permanently and you will get a GE by turn 320.
12) For Luxuries: There are 8 you can easily get yourself (see map). Trade for: from China, later Mongols: Jade, Silk, Opium, Tea; from Indian civs: Cotton; from Turks, later Mongols, maybe Arabia (basically whoever controls it, hope control is not split): Wine This gets you to 14, but the Mongols will need to like you, gift them happy.
13) You need 11 worker-turns to hook up the silver (in caste system). Thus this city needs to be settled turn 289 at the latest. Do to needing to move there you need compass by turn 285. There should be enough commerce to have some buffer. This should get you UHV#2.
14) Buddism and Hinduism should have spread themselves enough by around turn 270. Build/Whip 4 Temples of each.
15) Gangga Negara will now take over as much food as it can. At size 12 you can whip a cathedral after putting in about 80 hammers for 6pop, even without a forge.
16) Islam should start spreading around 1350 (turn 305). As soon as it spreads into a suitable city whip a monastery into a missionary, spread to Srivijaya, and use it as a hub to spread it where you want. Whip 4 temples.
17) Use the GE to hurry the last cathedral. I finished this in turn 325 without using the GE.

Except the Australia bit this is actually quite easy, because you can concentrate on one thing at a time internally: t220-t280: expand, t280-t330 build cathedrals. Always keep a eye on the trading situation. This civ does feel nice, because it is kind of a puzzle UHV, OTHO there is a lot of Diplo going on, distinguishing it from other puzzles. Overall a very nice civ.

 

[Gen1_]

Did you rename Clooncurry, or was it automatically called this way ?

 

[a pen-dragon]

Did you rename Clooncurry, or was it automatically called this way ?

I did not change any names. Actually it is written Cloncurry, which is, now that I thik about it, a very funny name.
Edit: link to Wikipedia

 

[Leoreth]

I don't think that really makes sense because only +2 happiness are specifically attached to Free Enterprise.

 

[TsimTsigal]

I don't think that really makes sense because only +2 happiness are specifically attached to Free Enterprise.

That's not what i mean. Effective +8 happiness is what allows you to run FE, not +2 tied to this civic in particular. For Communist/Welfare US extra happiness matter a lot, lot less.

 

[Maggy_domain]

Tibet UP of unlimited missionaries probably will never come into play, it's unlikely a civ that small would ever need to produce 6 missionaries at a time. Obviously they also still have the other more impactful half but just saying.

I wanted to write down a longer post on Tibet but let me just say for now that UHV is probably too easy. Converting 60 pops is not a lot in the new map, cities in India and China tend to be massive. You just need to convert 7-8 cities. The UP is forgettable under these conditions.
but also the 5 missionaries limit, you'll never have the production for it.

 

[triplebassist]

I just won the Toltec UHV around turn 250. Honestly, it was really easy but needed luck to go right. If you can't take Danbaan right away, there's no real way to get UHV 1, since you need that second Corn and won't be able to overpower Danbaan culturally in time. You've only got time for 2 Great People, so if there aren't different types (which you can't force--there isn't enough time), you lose UHV 2. And UHV 3 was really a waiting game to get the population with a side of defending my northernmost city from Natives.

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

I find it odd that in the old map Luoyang was three tiles east of your starting location as China, whereas in the new map it's two tiles east.

 

[Leoreth]

The old map distorted the location of Chang'an quite a bit to the west, the current map is much closer to the real geography. I do agree that it currently is quite awkward to fit in a second city on the Huang He, and I haven't dismissed the idea of moving Chang'an's location to the west yet.

 

[AOS9001]

Thoughts on America:

I've done two serious play-throughs on the AD 1700 scenario now, neither to successful completion. The game has definitely changed, mostly for the better, but global balance problems and the new UP are dark spots on something with a lot of potential in my opinion.

• The farms and pastures goal forces you to focus on internal development, which is good and historical. I had no time to make a Europe-conquering army in the 19th century, until 1830 or so I was building nothing but pioneers and workers, and after a mix of grenadiers, artillery, riflemen, and laborers. I had just enough time to force-vassalize Mexico, which really helped with the plantation/orchard and mine requirement. Unfortunately they started turning their mines into windmills in the 1870s, forcing me to scramble my laborers. Denying the cheesy "Conquer Europe first" meta of the old UHV gets points in my book, I never liked it.
• This is where the trouble began. The usual suspects' (Britain, France, Netherlands) tech rate began to skyrocket in the middle of the 19th century, Britain got film in the 1850s AGAIN and I would remain permanently behind from that point on, even after connecting all my resources, controlling the lower 48 (except Texas which revolted to my vassal Mexico in one game, lmao), and investing heavily in commerce buildings. Britain always tries to snipe the American cultural wonders (Hollywood and Graceland - I consider these necessary now because of the Mall UB giving additional happiness from them, very necessary with America's new UP), Netherlands always goes for the United Nations. I required strategic saving of great engineers to beat them, and on my first game that wasn't enough. I don't blame this on the American UHV, I blame it on tech rates not being balanced yet.
• The reason for the early conquest meta of the 1.17 American strategy was that by the 20th century, your enemies all have doomstacks in every city, and if you're not willing or able to go nuclear, every war becomes a slog. This shouldn't have been an issue because of America's insane production letting you build a giant army, but I couldn't build a giant army because...
• The new unique power. I don't like it. Every time I improved a resource, my cities would get bigger and angrier, and then immediately starve because they grew beyond what the food resources could support. So that additional growth vanishes immediately, and that additional happiness doesn't matter because your cities are +4 angry anyway. I invested a lot into commerce buildings in a vain attempt to keep up with Britain's broken tech rate, but I also invested a lot into happiness buildings to get my workers to do their jobs and build an army in a timely manner. This new UP feels like a punishment for improving the land as it is now, and worse, doesn't help with your UHV. The only way I was able to get some use out of it was by carpet bombing farms in the midwest - you don't need to do that, you need mines more than you need farms.
• So because I got distracted trying to keep my population's happiness up and building my tech rate up so that I wasn't fighting infantry with riflemen in 1890, I wasn't able to get even close to the third goal in either serious game.
• As a final note, there's a reason not to switch to secularism immediately: you need religion for happiness in your cities, so making protestant missionaries with tolerance is actually useful in the beginning.

A better player than me could probably pull off the early conquest. Or a player less concerned with happiness or tech rate. The problem is, you need the tech rate for your second UHV. I'm not sure there's a solution for America's problems until the tech rate balance has been worked on. Britain, the Netherlands, and France are so out of control in 1700 that any serious discussion of UHV goals that require techs, explicitly or implicitly, is pointless. I think from now one I'll avoid the 1700 scenario, AD 600 seems to produce a more reasonable world.

 

[ariel552]

Thanks so much Leoreth for all the great work! Yes please I can't wait for the 1.18 version! Just a comment: Russia always wins, in every game, I need to conquer them so they don't colonize Alpha Centaury first. Is there a way to make the russians game more difficult? Like adding peasant revolts, partisans, climate dissasters or something to limit their technological advance?

 

[ariel552]

Thoughts on America:

I've done two serious play-throughs on the AD 1700 scenario now, neither to successful completion. The game has definitely changed, mostly for the better, but global balance problems and the new UP are dark spots on something with a lot of potential in my opinion.

• The farms and pastures goal forces you to focus on internal development, which is good and historical. I had no time to make a Europe-conquering army in the 19th century, until 1830 or so I was building nothing but pioneers and workers, and after a mix of grenadiers, artillery, riflemen, and laborers. I had just enough time to force-vassalize Mexico, which really helped with the plantation/orchard and mine requirement. Unfortunately they started turning their mines into windmills in the 1870s, forcing me to scramble my laborers. Denying the cheesy "Conquer Europe first" meta of the old UHV gets points in my book, I never liked it.
• This is where the trouble began. The usual suspects' (Britain, France, Netherlands) tech rate began to skyrocket in the middle of the 19th century, Britain got film in the 1850s AGAIN and I would remain permanently behind from that point on, even after connecting all my resources, controlling the lower 48 (except Texas which revolted to my vassal Mexico in one game, lmao), and investing heavily in commerce buildings. Britain always tries to snipe the American cultural wonders (Hollywood and Graceland - I consider these necessary now because of the Mall UB giving additional happiness from them, very necessary with America's new UP), Netherlands always goes for the United Nations. I required strategic saving of great engineers to beat them, and on my first game that wasn't enough. I don't blame this on the American UHV, I blame it on tech rates not being balanced yet.
• The reason for the early conquest meta of the 1.17 American strategy was that by the 20th century, your enemies all have doomstacks in every city, and if you're not willing or able to go nuclear, every war becomes a slog. This shouldn't have been an issue because of America's insane production letting you build a giant army, but I couldn't build a giant army because...
• The new unique power. I don't like it. Every time I improved a resource, my cities would get bigger and angrier, and then immediately starve because they grew beyond what the food resources could support. So that additional growth vanishes immediately, and that additional happiness doesn't matter because your cities are +4 angry anyway. I invested a lot into commerce buildings in a vain attempt to keep up with Britain's broken tech rate, but I also invested a lot into happiness buildings to get my workers to do their jobs and build an army in a timely manner. This new UP feels like a punishment for improving the land as it is now, and worse, doesn't help with your UHV. The only way I was able to get some use out of it was by carpet bombing farms in the midwest - you don't need to do that, you need mines more than you need farms.
• So because I got distracted trying to keep my population's happiness up and building my tech rate up so that I wasn't fighting infantry with riflemen in 1890, I wasn't able to get even close to the third goal in either serious game.
• As a final note, there's a reason not to switch to secularism immediately: you need religion for happiness in your cities, so making protestant missionaries with tolerance is actually useful in the beginning.

A better player than me could probably pull off the early conquest. Or a player less concerned with happiness or tech rate. The problem is, you need the tech rate for your second UHV. I'm not sure there's a solution for America's problems until the tech rate balance has been worked on. Britain, the Netherlands, and France are so out of control in 1700 that any serious discussion of UHV goals that require techs, explicitly or implicitly, is pointless. I think from now one I'll avoid the 1700 scenario, AD 600 seems to produce a more reasonable world.

what about a civil war? or the spanic cities switched to mexico like los angeles, las vegas and san francisco in 1810?

 

[ariel552]

Ah and can I pick Italy in the 1700 map? they are merged with the austrians

 

[AOS9001]

what about a civil war? or the spanic cities switched to mexico like los angeles, las vegas and san francisco in 1810?

In my mind, the turns of anarchy resulting from switching from isolationism to nationalism/tolerance to secularism is the American Civil War. I've only ever seen Mexico settle the Southwest when the AI is playing USA, which typically turtles east of the Mississippi river until the later 19th century.

 

[Leoreth]

Ah and can I pick Italy in the 1700 map? they are merged with the austrians

The Italian spawn is before 1700 AD and they are not on the map in 1700 AD (historically accurate - Sardinia-Piedmont is too small to represent). Since there is no defined spawn date after 1700 AD there is no autoplay for them. You can only play the game and switch to them in case they respawn.

 

[Alexius08]

Thoughts on America:

I've done two serious play-throughs on the AD 1700 scenario now, neither to successful completion. The game has definitely changed, mostly for the better, but global balance problems and the new UP are dark spots on something with a lot of potential in my opinion.

• The farms and pastures goal forces you to focus on internal development, which is good and historical. I had no time to make a Europe-conquering army in the 19th century, until 1830 or so I was building nothing but pioneers and workers, and after a mix of grenadiers, artillery, riflemen, and laborers. I had just enough time to force-vassalize Mexico, which really helped with the plantation/orchard and mine requirement. Unfortunately they started turning their mines into windmills in the 1870s, forcing me to scramble my laborers. Denying the cheesy "Conquer Europe first" meta of the old UHV gets points in my book, I never liked it.
• This is where the trouble began. The usual suspects' (Britain, France, Netherlands) tech rate began to skyrocket in the middle of the 19th century, Britain got film in the 1850s AGAIN and I would remain permanently behind from that point on, even after connecting all my resources, controlling the lower 48 (except Texas which revolted to my vassal Mexico in one game, lmao), and investing heavily in commerce buildings. Britain always tries to snipe the American cultural wonders (Hollywood and Graceland - I consider these necessary now because of the Mall UB giving additional happiness from them, very necessary with America's new UP), Netherlands always goes for the United Nations. I required strategic saving of great engineers to beat them, and on my first game that wasn't enough. I don't blame this on the American UHV, I blame it on tech rates not being balanced yet.
• The reason for the early conquest meta of the 1.17 American strategy was that by the 20th century, your enemies all have doomstacks in every city, and if you're not willing or able to go nuclear, every war becomes a slog. This shouldn't have been an issue because of America's insane production letting you build a giant army, but I couldn't build a giant army because...
• The new unique power. I don't like it. Every time I improved a resource, my cities would get bigger and angrier, and then immediately starve because they grew beyond what the food resources could support. So that additional growth vanishes immediately, and that additional happiness doesn't matter because your cities are +4 angry anyway. I invested a lot into commerce buildings in a vain attempt to keep up with Britain's broken tech rate, but I also invested a lot into happiness buildings to get my workers to do their jobs and build an army in a timely manner. This new UP feels like a punishment for improving the land as it is now, and worse, doesn't help with your UHV. The only way I was able to get some use out of it was by carpet bombing farms in the midwest - you don't need to do that, you need mines more than you need farms.
• So because I got distracted trying to keep my population's happiness up and building my tech rate up so that I wasn't fighting infantry with riflemen in 1890, I wasn't able to get even close to the third goal in either serious game.
• As a final note, there's a reason not to switch to secularism immediately: you need religion for happiness in your cities, so making protestant missionaries with tolerance is actually useful in the beginning.

A better player than me could probably pull off the early conquest. Or a player less concerned with happiness or tech rate. The problem is, you need the tech rate for your second UHV. I'm not sure there's a solution for America's problems until the tech rate balance has been worked on. Britain, the Netherlands, and France are so out of control in 1700 that any serious discussion of UHV goals that require techs, explicitly or implicitly, is pointless. I think from now one I'll avoid the 1700 scenario, AD 600 seems to produce a more reasonable world.

There are enough plantation/orchard resources in America's historical area but not enough resources for the farm/pasture and mine/quarry resource parts of the first UHV, so taking outside areas (e.g. Canada, Mexico) is necessary. Is this intended or not?

 

[Leoreth]

It is intended, but vassals should count as well.

 

[BigSchwartzzz]

Just won the French UHV, 3000BC Monarch Epic. It was a very fun game. The culture goal I got at the last minute but wasn't really a sweat. I achieved the territory goal a few turns before the deadline but the limit was balancing overextension. If it wasn't for Angers I would not have been able to get the UHV. Coincidentally I built the Met in 1800 so I won in 1802.

The "fun" part was in 1794 when a Congress tried to give away one of my North American cities and one of my vassal's European ones so I refused and the entire world declared war on me.

My vassals were HRE, Prussia, Turkey, and the Kievan Rus. Between them I controlled all of mainland Europe except Iberia and Netherlands from Riga to Crimea.

I didn't see the French UP in action so another one that's more obvious would have been more fun, but unless the goals get intentionally more difficult a UP isn't even needed. I found that it took a while before the French cities started growing to decent sizes so perhaps something having to do with French cuisine to give more food growth bonuses.

The Norse were pathetic the entire game, so I think they certainly need to be buffed. England never presented a challenge. Arabia was a tech juggernaut until it collapsed in the 12-1300s, so perhaps they have to be slightly nerfed. Tech wise I was only slightly in the lead, so I found it pretty balanced in terms of relative pace, but I think we were all ahead of OTL tech by about 100 years.

 

[borhap88]

Arabia was a tech juggernaut until it collapsed in the 12-1300s, so perhaps they have to be slightly nerfed.

Indeed it was world tech leader until then

 

[banzay13]

Thanks so much Leoreth for all the great work! Yes please I can't wait for the 1.18 version! Just a comment: Russia always wins, in every game, I need to conquer them so they don't colonize Alpha Centaury first. Is there a way to make the russians game more difficult? Like adding peasant revolts, partisans, climate dissasters or something to limit their technological advance?

Enemy spy's can wreck havoc ©
Use your spyes active, switch their civic for destabilize. At least in 1.17 I othen was able to slow down England with spyes. And even collapse them to core (but with war and full blockade). But it didn't work with America, they too buffed