Late Game War

[Lunais]

I'm terribly inexperienced with late game warfare, and seem to be at loggerheads with Monty in a Noble game.

I have a serious tech lead over him (tanks vs cavalry), but he outnumbers my forces 4 to 1.

I've never had a good late-game defense, so I'm wondering how many military units per city is the average smart investment?

 

[svv]

A lot depends on how much cultural cushion you have around your cities. The AI is a lot less tempted to mount an attack on a city it can't see, and is a lot more likely to go after a border city right next to enemy territory.

On the border, again it depends on how strong your enemy is. Four or five machine guns usually work pretty well.

Also, if you have a good cultural cushion, and railroads, you wouldn't need much in each city (and a garisson of one warrior sufficies for deep interior cities). Just have a good reaction force, hopefully with a lot of cannon/atillery, to slam into any attacking force.

MP2 unit, like your tanks, are also nice in a defensive war. They can slam into an enemy stack, take one out, and run back into a city without allowing your opponent to counterattack it.

Also a nice stack of bombers is good - with enough of them you can take down the strength of each enemy unit in the stack to 50 percent. The AI generally won't even try to attack if you do that to its stack.

 

[Lunais]

Heh, so far I've only been using 1 or 2 machine guns per city

What about numbers for my offense? If I wanted to raid Monty (which is what it looks like I have to do for either domination or a UN win) how many offensive units are usually required for a late game push? Again I'm asking for a unit per city ratio because I can't really think of any other way to quantify my military.

Monty has half my pop and half my land space but 4 times as many military units.

I'm guessing I need to switch to a police state and draft/rush buy military units for a few years to get up to his level.

 

[Lord_Zath]

I'd say build at least one tank per city. Put choppers on borders on sentry to keep an eye on incoming units. At least one good defender per city (two or 3 on borders). Railroads built in all your tiles. Once war begins, build defensive units to place on conquered cities.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

If you have that much of a tech lead, 1:4 is fine - you don't want your troops defending cities - static defense is a waste of time given you don't want him to pillage and you have huge mobility in your homeland.

So each city gets one defender only.

Then you have a reaction force. In your case tanks are perfect for this. Also collateral damage units like artillery and cannon, and esp bombers. I would probably want at least 4 tanks reserved for this - that should be able to deal with any pillagers he sends your way. If he launches a major attack force before you attack him you will be forced to delay your own invasion plans until you use your attacking force (below) to mop up his main stack. If you attack him though his main attack will probably be against your attacking stack.

Your own attacking force is going to differ based on whether you have bombers or not.

With bombers:

- You need one tank per defender in his average city. So around 10 tanks probably. You will need some reinforcements for losses but these don't need to be built in advance. Plus 5-6 bombers. Plus one defender (eg infantry) per city you intend to capture. Note that the early cities will need a lot more than one defender, but the extra defenders can be pulled off as his cities collapse.

Early on the defense stack should accompany the tanks so you can get terrain defense bonuses. Later on the tanks should be released on their own for blitzkreig and the defenders follow as fast as they can to protect the captured cities.

Without bombers you will need 5 or so artillery to accompany your stack and I would add a couple of extra tanks as well as your losses will be higher.

 

[AThousandYoung]

Give your tanks first strike and barrage.

 

[KMadCandy]

I have a serious tech lead over him (tanks vs cavalry), but he outnumbers my forces 4 to 1.

i'd have known for certain you were talking about Monty just from that line even if you'd not said it

basically, remember that this is monty and that he's psycho. he fights, especially in the modern era, purely through strength of will and quantity of troops.

bombers are great for offense. they can get city defenses down, and damage stacks, from a distance, and can keep up with your tanks (unlike artillery). you can build new ones and they can fly to the front lines in a single turn, yay! and since he's that far behind tech-wise, you don't even have to worry about fighters.

i like InvisibleStalke's advice, especially about the pillaging. bring the fight to monty, and hopefully he won't be able to send his endless troops to tear up your towns.

in the "file for future reference" category:
chances are that you don't, but if you happen for some odd reason to have any out-of-date mounted units still around that have medic promotions, upgrade them to gunships. medic choppers are terrific, since they can move so far to change stacks/cities they're supporting if necessary. but gunships can't get the medic promotion, so it has to come from an upgraded veteran. tanks can't get medic either, so having a medic with them is really handy. i always always keep around several medic mounties for this purpose but you're not used to late game wars so you didn't know. 9 games out of 10 i use my first great general to earn chariot medic 3, and he stays a chariot (so that he doesn't ever defend the stack) until the days of cavalry are over. he's useful no matter how long the game lasts, and if it lasts that long, he gets to grow up to be a MASH helicopter.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Just one other warning - if Monty is close to rocketry and flight (probably unlikely from what you describe), then his hordes of cavalry will become hordes of gunships, which will be a HUGE problem for your tank based armies.

 

[vormuir]

The AI likes to build stacks. So, use collateral damage against him.

Tanks with Barrage are especially good because they can strike, hit a stack, do collateral damage, and then back away. (Bombers are even better, but they come late and are expensive.) Artillery and cannon can also hit-and-run when you're on your home terrain using your own roads and railroads.

There are two ways to war against a powerful AI.

1) Rope-a-dope. Declare war and let him come to you. The AI usually masses one or two monster stacks (to take cities) and some raider units which travel in ones and twos (to pillage your towns and farms and such).

Keep a couple of mobile units to deal with raiders -- tanks are great for this. Then hit his stacks with a devastating counterattack once they're in your territory.

2) Alternately, launch a knockout attack against one of his cities and take it fast. When the AI loses a city, it usually (not always! but usually) focuses its efforts on taking it back. So you'll know where his attack is coming...

If you are new at this (1) is probably easier. Monty will fling almost everything at you in a terrifying wave of attacks. But he's not subtle, and if you crush his assaults he won't have much left when your (promoted and experienced) units counterattack into his territory.

The AI is usually pretty predictable about their attacks... they prefer lightly defended border cities. If Monty has Astronomy and Chemistry, he might try an end run along the coast -- watch for that -- but most likely he'll go hey-diddle-diddle, straight up the middle.

cheers,


Waldo

 

[Jorunkun]

Don't get fixated on some general "units per city" ratio; instead, benchmark against the enemy's strength. Think in terms of what you want the war to accomplish, where it will be fought, then build up your force accordingly.

For me, war planning begins with assessing the enemy units. First, look at the one or two cities you want to take first. You will need enough of the right offensive units to take out all the defenders in one turn, plus enough artillery to reduce the cultural defenses and walls to a point where your attackers have significantly better combat odds than the defenders.

Next, find out where the AI keeps its "free stack" - a bunch of units that are not tied down with city defense. Find out what units are in it. As soon as you declare war, this stack will either come at your attacking force or attempt to counterattack where you are weak. Prepare enough appropriately placed artillery and offensive units to reliably take out at least two thirds of these units.

Lastly, look at your defense, but don't obsess about having x numbers of your top defenders in every city. Many cities will never see any action. Instead, fortify two or three of your top defenders in the cities near the area where the war will be fought and one per city in areas where the AI might counterattack, and maybe pre-build an additional defender that you can rush in those cities if things get hairy (or use outdated units that can be upgraded wit cash if neccessary).

Depending on the lay of the land, it may make sense to keep some mobile defenders stationed centrally or between cities. The AI always focuses its counterattack on one spot, so you're safe as long as you can bring enough defenders into the city in the turn after they arrive.

Lastly, think about how and when you want to end the war. The easiest wars are those where you overwhelm the enemy with superior strength, take the cities you want and sue for peace while strong. If your opponent has larger numbers, it makes sense to hold back your attacking stack and take out his counterattackers on your terrain before you move forward as this will allow you to pick your fights (and put a damper on war weariness).

If you are looking at a drawn-out, all or nothing endgame, make sure you can sustainably produce enough reinforcements and keep war weariness down with the culture slider until you achieve total victory. Don' be too daring in these kinds of wars - attack in waves, rest your attackers between offensives and don't take cities you cannot hold.

Wars are won on the offensive. Wars are not won by chance. If you apply your best forces so they can reliably accomplish your strategic goals victory will be yours.

J.

 

[cabert]

how to kill a stack of cavalries with a stack of tanks?
1) be the attacker (=let him come, and move inside your territory)
2) attack with colateral damaging units first (air support is best, a few barrage tanks can be enough)
3) use the blitz ability to attack 2 times with a tank. A wounded tank can kill a wounded (that's what colateral damaging is for ) cav.

edit : I Xposted with jorunkun, but vs huge stacks, you really need to avoid massive onslaughts outside your territory. The WW will stop your war effort if you don't (or build jails all over the place, switch to police state, build mount rushmore)

 

[Meanness]

Build lots of bombers.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Switch to nationhood, draft machine-guns, and move all your tanks into two huge stacks. Attack his cities and, read this, RAZE every city you capture. You can always resettle that land later. Neither tanks nor cavalry have defensive bonuses, go figure. And if he's got cavalry, than he's also got riflemen as defense. Riflemen do not stand a chance against tanks.

 

[Ebitdadada]

Build lots of bombers.

My thoughts exactly - When you're done with his millitary you can then systematically dismantle their economy. A spy in one of their cities is good to have here to track your progress.

 

[KMadCandy]

Switch to nationhood, draft machine-guns,

i'm new to using nationhood, but machine guns haven't been a unit that's come from my draftomatic button. maybe it's the tech path i've followed, but i also don't remember reading about them being draftable either. but for example, i knew that mech infantry would cost me 3 population even before i'd ever drafted one, since i'd read the number various places.

did i just not know they could be drafted? they'd not be my first choice to draft, since they can't attack. if by happenstance my tech path is letting me skip them but otherwise they would be what i'd have to draft at a certain point, i want to know so that i can tech this way on purpose . thanks.

Attack his cities and, read this, RAZE every city you capture. You can always resettle that land later.

very good point, i hadn't thought of that. especially since you're not used to the late game wars, don't give yourself the headache of defending the cities, just let your troops keep moving forward. if he has a holy city or a wonder that's not obsolete, maybe keep it, but ordinary cities, nah. and if monty's the last guy left, or almost the last guy, then raze 'em even if they're holy and have 17 wonders.

 

[cabert]

i'm new to using nationhood, but machine guns haven't been a unit that's come from my draftomatic button. maybe it's the tech path i've followed, but i also don't remember reading about them being draftable either. but for example, i knew that mech infantry would cost me 3 population even before i'd ever drafted one, since i'd read the number various places.

right, no MG drafting. Never.