Latin geeks ahoy, part II

[Pontiuth Pilate]

I remember we had a thread where someone tried to get help with Latin and there were more Latin speakers here than I suspected so let's see if you can help me.

I'm trying to turn "given to John of Carthage" into Latin.

donatus ut Iohanne carthagensi is what I have. I'm sure it's wrong. Halp plz!

 

[Brighteye]

I never bothered learning many endings, and those I did learn I've forgotten. It was too easy just to translate the sentences without worrying about the endings and guessing the order.

Here I wonder if ut is really necessary, and whether the word order is right.

 

[Rossiya]

The ut is not necessary at all; that is used for whole further statements. You only need the dative case of Iohannus to indicate that something has been given to him.

 

[Atticus]

And it would be better if donatus was the last word.

 

[HypnosTene]

A preposition is nothing you'd use in classical latin, but in medieval latin it was pretty much common. I wouldn't use ut in this context though.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I remember we had a thread where someone tried to get help with Latin and there were more Latin speakers here than I suspected so let's see if you can help me.

I'm trying to turn "given to John of Carthage" into Latin.

donatus ut Iohanne carthagensi is what I have. I'm sure it's wrong. Halp plz!

Ioanno Carthaginis datum.

 

[dutchfire]

Ioanno Carthaginis datum.

Wouldn't the datum depend on what was given? Datus/-um/a would act like an adjective.

 

[Norton II]

Ioanno Carthaginis datum.

Ioanni (Iohanni?) Carthaginiensi datum (or donatum).

 

[shortguy]

"Iohannes" is a rather unfortunate name. I don't know if it'd be declined in the Latin or in its original Greek.

In either case, "Carthaginiensi" or "Carthaginis" is probably acceptable, depending on what sense you want, and more information is needed to give the right verb form (though it's probably "datum").

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

How about Ioanni Carthageniensi datum ...?

"Carthaginiensi" or "Carthaginis" is probably acceptable, depending on what sense you want

What's the difference?

 

[Tomoyo]

"Carthaginiensi" would mean that John was a Carthaginian (in the Roman sense, I suppose this would mean that he had Carthaginian blood). "Carthaginis" would mean that John "belonged" to the city Carthage. There's not much difference.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Wouldn't the datum depend on what was given? Datus/-um/a would act like an adjective.

I'm using neuter since I don't know what was given.

Ioanni (Iohanni?) Carthaginiensi datum (or donatum).

How do you decline Ioannis anyway?

 

[Norton II]

How do you decline Ioannis anyway?

I'm reasonably certain it's third declension. Also, I think the nominative is "Ioannes".

 

[shortguy]

I'm using neuter since I don't know what was given.



How do you decline Ioannis anyway?

That's the problem. It's Greek, and thus may (I'm not sure) be declined like a Greek noun.

 

[Tomoyo]

I'm pretty sure it's declined as a normal Latin third declension noun. At least, that's what Vicipaedia says.

http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannes

 

[Leifmk]

I'm pretty sure it's declined as a normal Latin third declension noun. At least, that's what Vicipaedia says.

Amo Vicipaediam.

As has already been alluded to, classical Latin writers would often keep Greek declensions for Greek loanwords they used, including names; educated Romans were expected to understand Greek anyway. So when we study classical Latin we have to learn those as special cases when they appear in the texts. This particular name, though, has probably been used so much in Latin (and mostly in the post-Classical period) that it's "gone native".

As a side note, different writers would often choose different strategies when dealing with non-Latin names -- they might Latinize them, import non-Latin declension schemes, or just leave the names uninflected. Different medieval chroniclers, for instance, might easily refer to the same person by two or three different names. Annoying.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

I'm using neuter since I don't know what was given.

If it ends in um, e.g. novum edificium etc.? I'm guessing datum is the right form?

As has already been alluded to, classical Latin writers would often keep Greek declensions for Greek loanwords they used, including names

In that case Ioanni would be right?

 

[Leifmk]

If it ends in um, e.g. novum edificium etc.? I'm guessing datum is the right form?

In that case, yes, it would be. The perfect participle is basically an adjective (of the first/second declension), i.e. it has to match the attached noun in gender, case and number.

In that case Ioanni would be right?

You're going to have to ask someone else about that as it's all Greek to me.