Lawful/Chaotic Alignment Axis Balance

[KillerClowns]

While I rather like the idea of mutually exclusive religion specific buildings emphasizing different aspects of a faith (iirc Kael had already begun adding such "Advanced Temples to the main mod back in version 0.15 or so but they unfortunately got cut around the time I discovered the game), connecting the Order with Philosophers makes no sense at all. A Philosophers Conclave clearly sounds like an Empyrean building.

It was a quick "I need a Good equivalent" bit. Strike out Philosophers Conclave and replace it with... I'm not sure, actually. What would make a fitting Good, Order-based inversion of an Inquisitor's Office, which would by necessity conflict with their existence? (The Bannor might prefer an Inquisitor's Office, especially if corrupted; try and imagine a Kuriotate or Elohim interpretation of the Order when coming up with a suggestion.)

I'm not sure I really see the need for seperate units for the evil, false priests. You could simply make the spells available to them depend on alignment.

Hadn't thought of that at all. Yeah, your idea is better.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

When I searched for the old advanced temples, the first relevant thing I found was one of my old posts, which contained a quote of Kael's original implementation (without a link to it) plus my ideas for advanced temples for the religions that had just recently been introduced.

As you can see there, Kael's advanced temples for The Order were the Inquisitional Hall and the Managerial Office.

 

[KillerClowns]

That works excellently.
On another note, I was thinking. If we adopt the Order as having a unique spell set for followers of significantly non-standard alignment, perhaps the same should apply to the Ashen Veil and the Empyrean. (Esus, the Octopus Overlords, Cernunnos, and Kilmorph strike me as more willing to tolerate significantly misaligned followers; Esus would find some different way to manipulate them, the Overlords just plain don't care, Cernunnos is somewhat amoral, and Kilmorph, though basically benevolent, is focused more on tradition than right and wrong.)
The Order could draw from Aeron (or another Evil God, but I like Aeron for the purpose) as previously suggested, getting perverted versions of their previous spells, which emphasizes a "send meat into the grinder" philosophy. Bless could become Dark Blessing, and grant several points of extra strength... but with a chance of killing the unit on the next turn. Unyielding Order could become Mind Control... same effects as Unyielding Order, but in addition a military production increase, at the cost of GP points/Science.
Good Ashen Veil followers could draw from inner strength to get powers that combine light and dark. Ring of Flames could become Psychic Blast; similar damage but of a different damage type... perhaps 10% holy, followed by 10% unholy, to represent the odd position between light and dark held by Good AV followers... if that's possible. Summon Balor could summon a new unit of a similar theme. Call it a Twilight Angel for now, though I don't like that name. Think a Fallen Angel with both Holy and Unholy damage to its name, about equal to, but significantly different from, a Balor.
I've got nothing for Empyrean followers right now.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Aeron is the only evil god as hierarchical and strict as Junil, but from the lore (especially the Bazaar of Mammon pedia entry) I suspect that it was Mammon whom The Order's corrupt priests served. It seems just like Mammon to be running both sides of the war between the Bannor and the Overlords, having his servant Hastur lead the more clearly malevolent side destines for failure while he personally guides the supposed good-guys to victory. It reminds me of Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sidious having his apprentice Count Duku/Darth Tyrranus lead the rebellion against the Republic so that he could use the war as an excuse to make himself emperor.

Confessors were actually created specifically for the war against the Burnt Priest, as Diviners, Exorcists, and Blood-letters. It could be that this was after the high Priests were corrupt, and that their "exorcisms" actually consisted or having a higher ranking demon of Mammon order his subservients to make themselves scarce for a while. Real Divination is more associated with the Empyrean than the order, but Mammon was the original god of foresight so if his creations maintain a portion of his original nature they could be the best diviners in Erebus.

Kael said that the corrupt priests prayers were never answered so they did not really have divine magic. However, The Tale of Saverous shows one corrupt confessor as being able to force Saverous to testify against Valin against his will. She may have had a limited form of mind control thanks to Mammon or his demons. This Confessor, a woman named Maraphene, had a what appeared to be a feathered serpent (to Galenna, and angel of Junil who was watching over Valin; it was invisible to the mortals) but was presumably a demon coiled around her neck and whispering in her ear. I'm not sure what god that demon would serve; its appearance could imply it was originally made by Amathaon, but it clearly is not serving that gentle good god now. Most fallen angels join Agares, but it could have chosen a different god.


I would think that those few Good people who worship the King of Hope would try to preserve the original meaning if his sphere. Despite what Kael says, I prefer to think that the original form of the fallen spheres can still be accessed, just that it is extremely hard to do without becoming corrupted.

Good men raised to follow The Ashen Veil would probably be especially loved by Sirona, and could get their power from her instead of Agares even if they think their power does come from Agares. She was once very close to Agares, and still firmly believes that there is good in him and that he will eventually be redeemed.


Kael has stated that, while not nearly as common as good angels turning bad, evil demons sometimes turn good. They can work their way out of hell by demonstrating the virtues opposite of those which turn the souls of mortals into demons, and can end up becoming angels of other gods. I suspect Sirona accepts most of these former demons and Lugus the second most. Originally I thought that the Repentant Angel unit was suppose to represent former demons who are working to make up for past crimes, but Kael said that that was wrong and they are but angels forced to perform wicked deeds for a greater good. I still think I prefer my way though. If you want to go for that, Summoning a Repentant Angel might be good Good Profane spell.


I tend to think that the good and evil spells should not so closely mirror each other. I can't really picture offensive Good-AV spells. I'd consider moving the Spirit II Hope spell to that slot if something good to replace it could be found. I suppose you could have duplicate spells though if you cannot think of anything better.




The dark side of the Light sphere is that it is unrelentingly honest, which includes telling depressing truths to those already close to despair. It cannot lie, but it can omit things that would otherwise soften the blow or the truth and thus could distract people from what is really important. It is an extremely critical sphere that always says what no one wants to hear. This seems pretty close to how Agares operates, so he may very well be the power source of the Evil Empyrean. The Mirror of Heaven is often considered the holy equivalent of the Black Mirror which Agares used to create Hyborem. Both rely on introspection, but make one focus on different aspects on oneself. Wither (or at least Enervate, as I prefer to call it) could fit as an Evil Empyrean spell. Perhaps something that makes units rebel against their owners could work too.

 

[Wodan]

Aeron is the only evil god as hierarchical and strict as Junil

Wait right there a second.

Personally, I wouldn't say that the god determines the details of implementation of the religion. The mortal priests do that.

Use real life as an example, with the Christian god. We have catholicism and episcopalianism, which are pretty orthodox in a lot of ways, all the way to pentecostal / charismatic (the folks who believe in speaking in tongues and laying on of hands). There are mormons, quakers, baptists, etc.

So, does the implementation define the god? Or, can a single god have multiple implementations / instances (realizations)? Leaving aside that (in real life) that question verges on blasphemy... Using real life as an example, we have to say "definitely yes there are multiple religions/instances/realizations/sects for a single god".

 

[KillerClowns]

There's an important distinction between real life and FfH, however. Even giving the Christian God the maximum benefit of the doubt, we can say He's been very subtle and non-interventionist for the past couple millennia. The FfH gods are active, and often ill-tempered, beings who will tolerate some differences between sects as necessary, inevitable, and possibly (in Lugus' case, I'm sure) good. But without the assistance of another god to keep Junil at bay, priests of the Order attempting to implement an actively and deeply evil version of the Order would be corrected (or exterminated) by angels of Junil for their trouble. EDIT: And even if sending angels to directly confront the wayward priests would be too loose of an interpretation of the Compact for Junil, he'd definitely and pointedly ignore their prayers; the corrupted priests would be unable to perform the basic magics needed for Order rituals, and have to either go through them with sleight of hand and mage-style spell casting (as priests under Xivan, one of RiFE's new leaders, do), or get another god (such as Aeron) to fill the void.

 

[Wodan]

There's an important distinction between real life and FfH, however. Even giving the Christian God the maximum benefit of the doubt, we can say He's been very subtle and non-interventionist for the past couple millennia. The FfH gods are active, and often ill-tempered, beings who will tolerate some differences between sects as necessary, inevitable, and possibly (in Lugus' case, I'm sure) good. But without the assistance of another god to keep Junil at bay, priests of the Order attempting to implement an actively and deeply evil version of the Order would be corrected (or exterminated) by angels of Junil for their trouble. EDIT: And even if sending angels to directly confront the wayward priests would be too loose of an interpretation of the Compact for Junil, he'd definitely and pointedly ignore their prayers; the corrupted priests would be unable to perform the basic magics needed for Order rituals, and have to either go through them with sleight of hand and mage-style spell casting (as priests under Xivan, one of RiFE's new leaders, do), or get another god (such as Aeron) to fill the void.

That's all nice, in a storybook sort of way.

But in a game, the player has control over his actions, and the actions of his Order priets. Not Junil. And, there is no retribution. In RifE, with variable alignment, two-axis (a la D&D) alignment, and alignment that changes throughout the game, the actuality does not match your storybook description.

Not only can my Order priest commit a direct act of evil, but my nation can actually change to evil with variable alignment. And my Order priest will merrily keep on using Order rituals without disruption from Junil.

 

[KillerClowns]

There seems to be a misunderstanding. You are correct that there presently isn't retribution for diving down an alignment not usually associated with the religion. I'm saying there should be, and the reasons I've given are why I believe there should be. For instance, at present, the Order's mechanics work for an evil player just fine, as you have pointed out. They can still bless their units for +1 holy. I'm suggesting they shouldn't be able to do so, and that the Order should work differently for an evil player. It doesn't right now, but that doesn't mean this isn't a possible mechanic; if it wasn't possible, I wouldn't be proposing it. You are correct that, at present, FfH gods don't take action, but via the implementation of events that would force you to either change your tune or face the consequences, that can be amended.
EDIT: Further, I'd even suggest that the corrupted versions of religions be superior to non-corrupted versions, at the expense of events in the form of, say, angels coming down from time to time, "true" followers causing schisms and riots, et cetera.

tl;dr: You're saying there are no mechanics for odd religion-alignment combos to reflect divine disagreement. This is correct. I'm suggesting some that could be implemented, even though I am fully aware there aren't any right now.

ANOTHER EDIT: Well, if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. I'm presently beating files into a modmod... or something resembling such at any rate.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Compact gives gods almost complete power over those that worship them but leave them with very little power to interfere with those who worship another. So long as the priests are loyal to Junil he can make his will quite clear to them. When they choose to serve another (like when his high priests abandoned, probably for Mammon), he is pretty much limited to acting through those mortals still loyal to him (like Valin). He could not send angels against evil order priests except in answer to direct prayers from his true believers.

Also, those without enough faith in him would not be able to serve as conduits for his power even he he wanted to answer their prayers and perform miracles through them.

I don't think Order rituals really need any magic. There is certainly a place in many rituals for diviners, but I don't think there is an easy way to distinguish between true divination and stuff the diviner just made up. Mammon's diviners are probably much better at their job than Junil's anyway, at least when you take into account all their self-fulfilling prophesies.

 

[Randomness]

I think that this should be good AV.

Spoiler :

"The end is coming.

Demons once more walk the earth, hunted by angels with no interest in the stewardship of men. The gods have forsaken us, turning instead to petty squabbles over domain and precept - pettiness past the gates of Heaven! The children are born sickly, or not born at all. Savages descend upon all the civilized people, and some - some among us do not call this disaster. The cults of Armageddon have risen. The Long Night falls.

BUT PAST THIS NIGHT WILL BE DAWN!

Every man, woman, and child among us is mortal in body, yet immortal in spirit. Still there is that which threatens us - the domain of Death holds no sanctity against the machinations of demons, devils, even the devious among mortal men. Monsters walk that can feed on the life of a man and even beyond that consume his very soul. Fallen angels enslave the restless dead and conscript them into the armies of apocalypse and above all this...Armageddon. The End of all Ends, the yawning abyss beyond which no prophet may scry, the final oblivion that swells to consume us all forever.

YET WE ARE NOT HELPLESS AGAINST THESE TERRORS!

Even as a man may deny Death its due that upset balance is righted by another. Monsters and demons both may be slain, and if their souls are as difficult to kill as our own that is not to ascribe them any higher indestructibility! Even a god may be slain, and has been, if the world's need is great enough. AND EVEN ARMAGEDDON MAY BE TURNED IF OUR IMMORTAL SOULS SO WILL IT.

Agares - Destroyer! Enemy of Erebus! - yes, the God of Despair has fallen into darkness and seeks to drag all things with him. But he is only a god, not Armageddon itself! And I say this tug-of-war he seeks to play with Erebus is ONE WHICH WE CAN WIN! If a god can fall, a god can rise - rise to redemption, to a new Age of Triumph where we will walk unscathed from the shadows of this one into a new day, blinking as if newborn, and experience anew the warmth and beauty of a world bathed in light!

This is the dream that cannot be banished upon waking, the strength in our hearts that cannot fail even if their beating is ceased, the hope that cannot - cannot, if Agares himself were to stand before us and demand it - be swallowed up by despair. This is the Dawn Invictus, the light that will steal over us however many armies of damned demons stand in our way. The Long Night is falling, brothers and sisters! Let our fears and our weaknesses pass now into slumber, and let our valor stand the vigil through these darkest hours.

Every demon that lives was once angel or man, and will be made so again. Every terror that bares teeth against us will find the incandescent fury of the Dawn no easy meal to drag away to dark corners. And Agares, King of Hope, will remember himself before he brings Erebus to its end! Hear me, citizens of Erebus! A Long Night comes, but WE ARE THE DAWN INVICTUS! A darkness shall pass, and at its end will be a new day! Stand with me! Fight with me!

AND WITH ME, GREET THE DAWN!"

These are the last words of Marikinde, Guardian of the Dawn, shortly before her unfortunate end as the night's first merry feast for a band of laughing Revelers. It appears after inciting a crowd of Ashen Veil initiates she was selected by their savants as the first sacrifice to poison the earth beneath their unhallowed temple - copies of her speech have appeared here and there (it is troubling to me that I found Disciple Sheridan Malindrel hiding one of these in his quarters - I suspect one or two of their Messengers remains in the city and is targeting the Fellowship in their conversion efforts) but information regarding exactly what took place later that night is frustratingly anecdotal.

Reports indicate everything from the Temple of the Veil falling to pieces by itself as the raw influx of hope undid Agares' works in the area, to a Beast of Agares turning on the Profane in charge of defiling our city in preparation for the summoning of more of its kin before bringing the temple down on itself, to the prophet Marikinde returning as an angel, shattering the whole thing with a spoken command, and leading the Dawn's converts out of the city...

Although our priests called in a number of Life adepts to be sure, it would appear the area did not, in fact, require sanctification before the construction of a new Temple of Leaves was begun, and the blights in the nearby forests appear to be receding. The new disciples of this 'Dawn Invictus' seem to have moved on - Kazendel, the Autumn Razor, says he can feel the grip of Armageddon loosening from the land in the direction they were headed, yet the reports of dire omens and the appearance of demons has not faded from the area. We've sent Kazendel and two younger Satyrs to follow them - this merits further investigation.

-Almalyl Vintendia, reporting to Kithra Kyriel on the Liberation of <LJOSALFAR CITY>

 

[KillerClowns]

Well, I've got a .txt of ideas, but I'm postponing any actual work beyond the proof-of-concept test runs I did until the alignment system is much more fleshed out; it's damn near impossible for anyone to change alignment beyond religion, so any alignment-based religion oddities will have to wait. Such is life.