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Leader Ability Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Kmart_Elvis, Oct 27, 2018.

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  1. Leathaface

    Leathaface Emperor

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    Alexander - To The World's End [17]
    Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [2]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [28+1=29] +1 Combat Strength from each Luxury resource lasts throughout the entire game. If you start near another continent it gets even better. Plus 2 extra cities benefiting from 1 amenity is helpful.
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [28-3=25] I can imagine if a policy card (Feudalism) gave not only the big important Leader Ability of another Civ but even doubled that bonus then that Civ would be long gone by now. People aren't upvoting China because of the bonus production towards wonders (which only lasts for a couple of eras), that isn't one of the very best leader abilities in the game, nor is building the great wall. It's because of the +1 builder charge, and both a single policy card and a governor promotion outdo that ability. Monty, Alexanders, Tomyris's, Trajans and Shakas leader abilities are stronger.
    Shaka - Amabutho [20]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [33]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [35]

    Pity to see Persia go so early. That +2 movement can be absolutely devastating in the early game when you've got Immortals, it can the deciding factor in a war. Plus it lasts throughout the entire game.
     
  2. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    Alexander - To The World's End [17 - 3 = 14] I can imagine this is brutal in multiplayer, but in single player I don't really find my wars lasting long enough where war weariness becomes a serious impediment.
    Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [2]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [25+1 =26] I find the criticism of 'you can get it elsewhere' a bit odd - it stacks with the policy cards/pyramids/governor ability. You get it right from the outset - you can use 3 to get the inspiration for craftmanship and get an early chop/wonder assist. The early wonder bonus part of the UA is also significant - you can snag a early wonder even on high levels without too much sacrifice, which can help kick off an early golden age, and save your chops for districts.
    Shaka - Amabutho [20]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [33]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [35]
     
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  3. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    Alexander - To The World's End [14]
    Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [2]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [26 + 1 = 27] I really like this ability. Builder charges are useful throughout the game, and early on this can get you a very nice boost. Although the ability becomes less significant as the game goes on, when the wonder boost part is removed and the base number of builder charges has gone up from other sources, that one extra builder charge is still nice. I also have a personal preference for peaceful play and wonder construction, so this ability really suits my playstyle.
    Shaka - Amabutho [20 - 3 = 17] It's a strong ability in theory, but while this may shock some of you, fact is I rarely have need for corps and armies. For one thing, I personally don't like warmongering, and for another, the AI never manages to pose a military threat to me anyway. In the beginning, this is due to its staggering ineptitude at battlefield tactics. Later on, it's because of its staggering ineptitude combined with the fact that I usually have a large tech advantage. I imagine this ability is fantastic in multiplayer though, where you would be facing competent opponents, and where, given how heavily this game favours warmongering, beating up your neighbours is probably not optional.

    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [33]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [35]
     
  4. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Alexander - To The World's End [14+1=15] Makes Deity difficulty a joke for Domination Victory
    Catherine - Catherine's Flying Squadron [2-3=ELIMINATED] Weakest remaining
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [27]
    Shaka - Amabutho [17]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [33]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [35]
     
  5. Toaae

    Toaae Rogue

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    Alexander - To The World's End [15]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [27]
    Shaka - Amabutho [17]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [33+1=34] This power is just so strong, effectively allowing a smaller force to wipe out a larger one effectively. Add on that it synergizes so well with the rest of the civ and it's hard to argue against.
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [35-3=32] It's hard now, so I'm asking myself, is this the best? And I don't think it is. Excellent, but not the best.
     
  6. Wit

    Wit Chieftain

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    Alexander - To The World's End [15]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [27]
    Shaka - Amabutho [17-3=14] While I appreciate earlier access and added strength to corps/armies, this affects too small a part of the game to compete with the others.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [34]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [32+1=33] Need to boost Trajan here; this just contributes so much to build an empire that will stand the test of time.
     
  7. Weraptor

    Weraptor King

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    Alexander - To The World's End [15-3=12] Dragging wars < Blitzkrieg
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [27+1=28] If only the rest of China's kit was so good as this is.
    Shaka - Amabutho [17-3=14]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [34]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [33]
     
  8. Zdarg

    Zdarg Prince

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    Alexander - To The World's End [12-3=9] For one victory only.
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [28+1=29] Saying that Llang outdoes Qin is proven lie, which I don't intend to tolerate.
    Policy card outdoes, that's true, but a) both are sinergic, not mutually eclusive and b) Feodalism is relatively late civic. If you have 8-10 cities at turn 100, not improving a lot of their tiles seems rather suboptimal strategy.

    Shaka - Amabutho [14]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [34]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [33]
     
  9. TomKQT

    TomKQT Prince

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    Alexander - To The World's End [9]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29+1 = 30] Two non-militaristic abilities left - Qin and Trajan. I rate them both exactly the same, so I'll try to even their scores.
    Shaka - Amabutho [14-3 = 11] Very hard to pick the worst of the militaristic abilities. This one seems to be the least usefull for me, at least for a long time at the begining of the game. And battles are hardest when you still don't have access to corps and armies anyway, so I'll give my -3 to Shaka.The other abilities are usefull right from the start - except also for Alexander, because there's no war weariness (and wonders) in the starting ages :)
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [34]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [33]
     
  10. Legacy of Smiles

    Legacy of Smiles Prince

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    I thought it would be interesting to look at the top six competitors (ignoring Catherine). It's a shame Curtin went prematurely and Catherine went from overhated to impossible to get rid of but I'm pretty happy with the top 6 selection.

    Alexander:
    • Gives access to an amazing unique unit on par with eagles warriors and war carts
    • Unique unit further boosts great general points in the classical era, giving you a GG advantage throughout the early-mid game.
    • Complete negation of war weariness lets you war almost nonstop. This may seem insignificant if you don't want to speedrun but remember: wars generally become harder later in the game. This ability lets you pick off opponents before they get walls, uniques, nukes and more.
    • Healing from wonders is nice but unreliable and helps support near constant war, especially because the last city you want to capture before a war is unnecessary is usually the enemy capital which happens to almost always have a wonderful on deity.
    • Weaknesses: Lack of boosts to directly impact battles, domination/religion victory only.
    Overall, a strong ability but I wouldn't call it top 3 due to a very noticeable lack of battle advantages excluding the UU which is IMO the star of this boost.
    Montezuma:
    • Amenities are nice and cool from a flavour PoV. Acts as an Alex lite (see above).
    • Star of the show: the attack boost. Attack bonuses are exponential (consult Zigzagzigal's steam guide for stats) but the numbers get ridiculous. Get enough luxuries and you pretty much win.
    • Weaknesses: Only really helps for domination/religion victory. Map size is a factor. Needs builders and expansion to be utilised.
    Overall, the boost is massive making this easily top 3 material IMO.

    Qin:
    • Honestly, people are getting hung up on the extra builder charge and its really nice, yes, but in a game where early rushes are optimal a good amount of my early game builders are captured and thus unavailable. Loses lustre later on when this boost can be replicated. Yes, they stack, but other methods have moderate to small opportunity costs and stacking becomes fairly redundant unless you want your spare builders wasting charges/taking 20 turns to get to where they want to be because they were built 50 turns ago across the map.
    • The wonder production from builders is nice but I can't help but think sacrificing an early rush for it often isn't worth it. What wonders are even that useful from those eras that you can't often get (Temple) anyway, even on deity. Pyramids? You do need a desert though... Verdict: situationally useful but fairly fun, YMMV.
    • Weaknesses: Lack of significant bonuses mid-late game, especially if builders aren't proving too necessary or you would get builders charges from governors and/or policies with little opportunity cost.
    Overall, bonuses are distinct and decent but I don't see this on my top 3.

    Shaka:
    • Early corps and armies make games. The attack bonus is huge (second only to Monty) and the increased production is mitigated by synergy with the impi.
    • First half of the bonus is incredibly powerful early-mid game but late game obsoletes.
    • +5 combat boost to an early corps/army is a ridiculous boost over even deity AI. Prepare for battles to be won in your sleep.
    • Weaknesses: Requires excess production and obsoletes somewhat late game.
    Overall, this makes games get won. Attack boosts are massive and come as early as the medieval era, before Monty can compare. Easily top 3 material.

    Tomyris:
    • +5 strength is +5 strength and that's a large advantage over even deity AI. Enough said.
    • The heal on kill is really cool in that it lets your army regenerate in a way nobody else's can.
    • Both bonuses synergise well with the light cavalry emphasis of the Civ, letting your horses chance down and eliminate wonder targets for easy health.
    • Weaknesses: Again, combat only and full health enemies can be an issue.
    Overall, this is a reliable and powerful combat bonus and I'd argue it's worth on any top 3.

    Trajan:
    • Assumed ancient era start.
    • Monument is a nice boost but it's also the only boost. However, it's a very strong and very easy to achieve passive culture boost which makes early game civics like political philosophy (ogliarchy for legions) much quicker to get.
    • Monuments are 80 production which is 5-15 turns in most new cities. Again, nice, but is it really necessary? It could be chopped instead.
    • Saves time letting you make more useful things.
    • Captured cities generally have a monument anyway.
    • Weaknesses: Referenced above. Also obsoletes late game when monuments become ridiculously cheap and their boost less important. Favours peaceful expansion over warmongering.
    Overall, I'd argue this doesn't really effect the game as much as people think. Good, but barely not on my top 3.

    Alexander - To The World's End [9]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [30-3=27] My time to make enemies. People are saying others are bad for only contributing to domination/religious victory. This ability only contributes to culture and maybe the builder charge for science and even then it's not game changing.
    Shaka - Amabutho [11+1=12] Yes, it's for one victory type but it also makes that victory type trivial.

    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [34]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [33]
     
  11. Mesix

    Mesix The Allfather

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    Alexander - To The World's End [9]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [27+1=28] - Hands down the #1 leader ability when taken by itself (without UU, UB, UI, or civ ability synergy). The game is won or lost in the 1st 100 turns, and having workers which produce 33% more is a huge benefit. The bonus to wonder production in the first two eras stacks with the policy card and other bonuses (religion if you take it) to allow you to chop early game wonders. Don't want to build wonders, use the policy cards for unit building bonuses and chop a military. Heck, build three improvements for a city, and then chop a district with that extra charge. This leader ability is good for any victory condition and at all difficulty levels.
    Shaka - Amabutho [12]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [34-3=31] - Yes, it's good, but it is not that good. Compared to the other remaining, she doesn't deserve to be top 5.
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [33]
     
  12. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Alexander - To The World's End [9-3=6] - If I must war I prefer short wars with limited objectives. Other militaristic leaders have abilities that suit me better than Alexander.
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [28+1=29] - Builders contribute to every type of victory unless you can win w/o improvements and chopping. Qin is strong not just because of hammers saved but also time saved. Less builders so less time spent building them, more time spent building something else. Less time spent moving builders to where they need to be. Knowing you can probably get the wonders you want means you can plan to make the most of them eg having an army ready for when the Terracotta Army is finished or having a Petra city with builders in situ so you can build it as soon as you get the tech.
    Shaka - Amabutho [12]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [31]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [33]
     
  13. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Alexander - To The World's End [6]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [29-3=26] - With the game kind of skewed towards smaller cities how many improvements/chops do you need? At best this just saves you a few thousand gold over the course of the game.
    Shaka - Amabutho [12+1=13] - Kind of surprised this is as low as it is, it gives you a heavy advantage from Mercenaries and on.

    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [31]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [33]
     
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  14. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Alexander - To The World's End [6]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [26]
    Shaka - Amabutho [13-3=10] It's certainly powerful and that's why it still around. In single player, it's totally unnecessary, as Knights bring you to victory fast, with or without corps. I have to choose between Toymris' and Shaka's fighting bonuses, I prefer Tomyris' ones (even after the nerf).
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [31]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [33+1=34] I generally prefer active bonuses to passive ones, but this is different. It enables Rome to go wide quickly and peacefully in the early game. It's also the most flexible one left as it helps in any game and play style (whereas in my peaceful games, I often don't fight after antiquity - except for defending, which is usually easy without bonuses). Want to play a quick domination game that ends in medieval times? Very helpful. Want to win with national parks and resorts? Very helpful. I think that only Tomyris is on the same level.
     
  15. kryat

    kryat King

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    Alexander - To The World's End [6]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [29-3=26] Without a doubt, this is strong, but it’s not as powerful as people seem to think it is. It only helps a military victory and it’s neither powerful as Ghengis nor flexible as Catherine, if they embrace espionage. And the luxuries are really only a moderate incentive for builder players.
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [26+1=27] While Liang and Feudalism might seem to make this ability moot, the fact remains that Qin can build more earlier. This means bigger and more productive cities in the first 50 turns. It’s only downside is that you might have a hard time finding things for builders to do in the mid to late game, but that’s a good problem to have:
    Shaka - Amabutho [10]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [31]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [34]
     
  16. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter King

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    Alexander - To The World's End [3] --- A nice ability, but half the battle with war weariness is not taking any casualties and if you war into the mid game with base 48 strength knights against increased strength city garrison's, you will. Edit: Coincidentally, this seems consistent with the historical Alexander (who didn't know when to call it quits and consolidate).
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [26]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [27]
    Shaka - Amabutho [11] --- 48 strength knights start to become fragile when going against 60 garrison strength city walls even with a battering ram. In fact, it's fairly easy for a crossbowman (or two) to break a siege and cost me valuable production and time to replace the knight(s). I also lose the accumulated experience. Not so with Shaka's 63 strength knight corps. Also makes for 51 strength horse corps skirmishers who can siege a city in a pinch. Does take awhile to get going, which adds to the enjoyment.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [31]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [34]
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
  17. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    Alexander - To The World's End [3]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [26+1 = 27] = Extra amenities means happier cities with 10/20% boosts. And the combat bonus can help and the start and scale significantly.
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [27]
    Shaka - Amabutho [11-3=8] - Strong but comes closer to mid game when the game is mostly already decided (at least in single player). At this point, it's the only LUA left not available in the ancient era.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [31]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [34]
     
  18. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    Alexander - To The World's End [3]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [27]
    Shaka - Amabutho [8-3=5] - Available from the first turn? No. Useful in every victory? No. Good for non-militant empire builder like me? No.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [31]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [34+1=35] - Available from the first turn? Yes. Useful in every victory? Considering you don't have to waste your production on this and you get early cultural boost, yes. Good for non-militant empire builder like me? Yes.
     
  19. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer King

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    Alexander - To The World's End [3]
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [27-3=24] While the extra amenities to cities are the nice, the combat bonuses aren't that substantial.
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [27+1=28] For the reasons stated all over the thread.
    Shaka - Amabutho [5]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [31]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [345
     
  20. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

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    Alexander - To The World's End [3+1=4] This can actually be used for science victories as well. Get good production going in your cities and build units with your UB for science. Then to eliminate the maintenance costs, you can simply pillage and fight enemy units in suicide runs. Make more units and science, on top of all the science from campuses. The enemy still gets war weariness even from defeating your units in his lands. A bit unorthodox way to go for SV, but still fun.
    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [24]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [28]
    Shaka - Amabutho [5-3=2] Kicks in later than any other ability here. And yes, good for Knight rushes, but I can also get 63 strength Single knights with an extra movement point as Mongolia no problem.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [31]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [35]
     
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