Leader Traits Revisited

[Thunderbrd]

And take a look at Shaka. He takes a severe hit with crime from his traits and if you recall he was the primary example made by pit.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'll have to go thru the Leader file again and refresh my notes. Some of the Leaders I profiled while Slick was at it are not used now. The Mega pack probably needs looked at too.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I believe we will definitely want to adjust leader assigned default traits once we've smoothed things over here.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sorry for misstating. I'm still not good with programming with conditional tags. Thanks for correcting me there Toffer!

Here is the review in its last known state.
I've put it all on the document now. Except for updating with the newest tags that were added to these infos that were in the works to greatly alter this initial setup plan.

The plan for these was for this to form the core and guide me through the process of turning these traits into layered trait selections for Developing Leaders. For now, even just what I have here I would suggest implementing (or at least discussing to the point where we CAN implement something based on this design). We could then playtest it a bit and see how it goes in-game and could guide to further adjustments and buy us (me) time to re-audit the whole structure.

The primary complaints about this suggested traits structure were:

• Too many traits defined - I don't think this is a bad thing. C2C is about lots of options. As long as those options are meaningful and balanced then it should do little more than make it so that players will want to explore many new ways to form their leaders.
  
  
• Too many modifiers or elements to each trait - I suppose with some they could be reduced but I don't think it's too excessive with this proposal really. Many modifiers are filling gaps to keep things better balanced. There's a lot of things traits can alter and I've tried to keep the modifiers very true to the effects of a nation being ruled by such a leader.
  
  
• Traits are too strong - They may be. They may not be. It remains to be seen imo.
  
  
• They are too symmetrical - That was really the whole intention of the proposal was to keep things in a symmetrical sense of balance between all trait options. SGT Slick preferred a more haphazard benefits vs penalties arrangement on each trait. In fact, you'll notice that negative traits are all opposites of existing positive traits and if setup the way I was going to, you can't TAKE a negative trait that's directly opposed to an opposite you already have and vice versa.

That's where the main disagreements in design philosophies took place that couldn't be resolved with options like Pure Traits (eliminates all positive aspects on negative traits and removes all negative aspects on positive traits) and No Negative traits.

Quoted to keep folks from overlooking since we've taken on a new page already.

I'm also working on updating the tag list with new notes. They're roughly sketched notes at the moment. Eventually I'll get into evaluating each tag more deeply and expressing the proper xml syntax for utilizing the tags.

 

[JosEPh_II]

After looking at the 2 sets of Leader Traits the 2 major difference beween ls612's Focused traits Option and Sgt. Slick's is that:
1. ls612 reduced greatly or set to 0 most of the iUpkeep values that Slick used. Most of Slicks iUpkeep Values were very High.
2. ls612 greatly simplified the various Crime Malus that Slick has in his set.

As for the rest of the values used, there are many small tweaks to reduce what Slick used in ls612's Focused set.

Overall Focused is not as prone to the major modifier swings that Slick used.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

My 1st step on the adjusting the Traits will be to Modify the Crime expressions in Sgt Slicks set. Some of the Negative Traits are so heavy handed that on Eternity gamespeed they can cause AI to stagnate and go bankrupt. Especially if the Leader is assigned 2 of these Bad Crime Traits like, for example, Shaka.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

In most of my games, Shaka was one of the most powerful foes to encounter. To be fair, I played a long time with no starting traits and developing leaders. But even before that he was always very strong. I think that's because he is so agressive that he ends up with a pretty big empire.

 

[JosEPh_II]

In most of my games, Shaka was one of the most powerful foes to encounter. To be fair, I played a long time with no starting traits and developing leaders. But even before that he was always very strong. I think that's because he is so aggressive that he ends up with a pretty big empire.

And this was on Eternity gamespeed? And yes Shaka is aggressive as is Montezuma, Peter and several other Leaders. But reports have come in saying that Shaka stagnates from too much Crime burden and can die out early game.

So which is it?

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

And this was on Eternity gamespeed? And yes Shaka is aggressive as is Montezuma, Peter and several other Leaders. But reports have come in saying that Shaka stagnates from too much Crime burden and can die out early game.

So which is it?

JosEPh

Yeah i have 2 games now with Zulu and the civ doesnt do much just sits around doing not much, at least in my game, that is . .

btw mine is set for Marathon speed. .

 

[Faustmouse]

No, it was the one above Eons. I think that's snail?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yeah i have 2 games now with Zulu and the civ doesnt do much just sits around doing not much, at least in my game, that is . .

btw mine is set for Marathon speed. .

I am not seeing that on Snail. They expand almost as fast as I do given the space to expand.

 

[strategyonly]

I am not seeing that on Snail. They expand almost as fast as I do given the space to expand.

HUH, i usually dont play Marathon anymore, i stick with Epic. But for me personally Snail is waaay to slow FOR ME . . .

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Anything else is way to fast for me

 

[strategyonly]

Anything else is way to fast for me

Thats because YOU have patience, and i have very very very little, i had the patience stuff in the military, Hurry up and WAIT, Hurry up and WAIT, tired of that, YEAH its just like the darn turn times of C2C. . . lol

 

[JosEPh_II]

No, it was the one above Eons. I think that's snail?

Even alberts2 has told me that the Crime burden was causing some AI massive problems but that there was variances. Sometime several in a game to sometimes just one.

But the digging I've been doing the last couple of days has uncovered more situations were crime is implemented to strongly early game and too lightly late game.

Traits is one of those areas. There were 8 Traits with varying strengths of additional crime being put into the game, especially early game. Get a Leader with certain traits or combo of bad crime traits and the AI struggles early game.

For example there were several that used a formula were up to 9 Crime/turn down to 3 Crime/turn was added in when Crime level became greater than population x 2. Think about that. Another one added 3 crime/turn when Crime level > pop x 7. Others used a set city pop to add up to 10 crime per turn. But a couple actually took so much Crime away that you could virtually ignore it for a long time. Ex. -6 Crime/turn when Crime reached level > pop x5.

Also Crime per Pop is not the same constant number for each level of Difficulty. The Range is 1 per pop at Settler to 5 for Deity. Nightmare Option starts with Settler at 2 and ends with Deity at 6 After I fixed 2 mistakes on Immortal and Deity levels. Immortal instead of being 5.5 was actually 1 and Deity was 5 same as Non Nightmare level.

So I've tweaked those numbers. But still balancing Crime will take some more tweaks and changes before it scales better during game play. It should be getting a bit more constant and consistent with the latest changes.

I'm learning more about AIAndy's Expression System as the push from other modders is to get the crime modifiers to use % instead of set + or - integers.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm learning more about AIAndy's Expression System as the push from other modders is to get the crime modifiers to use % instead of set + or - integers.

This statement suggests you may have mistaken the intention of those comments.

It's not about making % modifiers to crime rates (that's interesting but probably not necessary). It's about making crime buildings that give penalties give those penalties in % Modifiers rather than flat +/- change rates.

 

[JosEPh_II]

This statement suggests you may have mistaken the intention of those comments.

It's not about making % modifiers to crime rates (that's interesting but probably not necessary). It's about making crime buildings that give penalties give those penalties in % Modifiers rather than flat +/- change rates.

That too, But if doing that then the Properties that give or take away Crime may not be as easily balanced if/when Crime buildings get changed to %. I understand the need for Crime to scale with pop and eras and not just be Front loaded as it has been. Getting there is the challenge.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

True that my friend. Glad to have you working on it. Just want to ensure we're all on the same conceptual 'page'.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Upon further review of Traits and Leaders I've reached the conclusion that the main set is Not Sgt Slick's set of Traits. If they are they are a drastically reduced set.

His initial <iUpkeepModifier> values are long gone. Traits like Deceiver are but a shell of what they once were. Deceiver has basically no negatives except on building a handful of buildings. And even that list makes little to no sense. The bonus for Deceiver is 2 spy promos and an uptick in Espionage.

The only part of the traits that was even close to Slick's version was the Crime and Disease properties. Which I have tweaked already. Further tweaks may come if feedback comes in.

I don't know when the set was changed or who changed them. I also know that by not selecting any of the Trait Options you are in fact using this "main" set. No wonder I thought I was using vanilla BtS or something similar all this time.

Analysis of ls612's Focused vs this set will be coming soon.

Edit: Thunderbrd or alberts2 changed Slick's Traits sometime after Dec. 2014 per their posts in the Extra Traits thread.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I didn't touch them BUT I haven't noticed any changes since Slick left. Of course, if you're referring to the last layout as he stated they would be he changed quite a bit after that and before vanishing.