Leaderhead Database and Request thread

[IgorS]

And BTW, Scandinavia is not really that cold, partly due to the North Atlantic Current. It can be pretty warm up here in the summer. Of course, it is not Italy, but let me remind you that New York actually lies south of Rome, and look at the temeperatue differnences in those two cities. And the same counts for the tip of Greenland and Oslo, which are at the about same altitude (or whatever it is named). Actually, last summer, the highest temerature in Norway were in Tromsø, believe it or not, and that were over 30 degrees (celsius).

As someone who visited Scandinavia in August, I can confirm!

 

[SIMPA]

So I guess no one is going to create a leader for EU...

You really suck guys...

 

[The Capo]

I'm too busy right now SIMPA (I can't even keep up with my own projects), so you can try to find someone else (maybe Nitram or Den, i.e. another European) or just learn to do it yourself. Or you could just be patient about it.

 

[kochman]

Kochman, I'm going to take a wild guess and say you didn't storm the beaches at Normandy.

No, I didn't, but my family members did, and I have served in war. You don't have to take part in something to speak about it's important, that's a pretty lame argument. You know I dig your work, etc... but that was a ridiculous point. If we can only talk about things we partook in, we wouldn't have much we could even talk about, would we.

The point was, the USA bashing is ridiculous and completely uncalled for in this thread... where I was just pointing out that per Civ mechanics the EU, which is not sovereign and what's more, basically a flash in the pan that hasn't had a huge impact on the world, is an inappropriate nation for the game... it would be like having the NATO or the WARSAW Pact in the game as one nation.


Well, I was pretty much done, until your incredibly thick and insulting post... I have inserted the highlights...

Let me remind you that the Israeli govewrnment (governement, not the people) are recreating a second "holocaust" against the palistines...
Wait a sec... you really want me to watch a MOVIE TO GET ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE! That is pretty weird indeed. And as Capo said, what you guys have sacrificed for Europeans is history by now. I am indeed grateful that FDR in secret worked to get US into WWII, but you were not there at the time and the situation have changed over the years

Ok, now I see, it makes sense now... we have another Jew-hater here. VeBear, you are a racist. You are now on my ignore list because I don't associate in any fashion people who spread lies and propaganda...
Nevermind about watching Band of Brothers, you are clearly not able to see things as they are. I know it would have really pained you to take the time to do that. The reason I wanted you to WATCH it, instead of read, is because it makes the suffering and blood stand out, but you don't care... and the liberation of the concentration camps... Heck, a good portion of your small country's fighting men joined the SS anyway... enough to help man two SS divisions:
5. SS-Panzer-Division Wiking
11. SS Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Nordland
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=50
As well as yet another Regiment of the SS made up entirely of Norwegians...
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 23 Norge
Of course, the SS was completely voluntary, and responsible for the genocide of millions. And nice old Norway took a happy role in it, yet you are saying the Israelis are involved in Holocaust? Hypocrite.
Hmmm, also, don't see any American SS divisions, or British... hmmm...

Again, I don't have to have been there to know, because my relatives were there, it wasn't very long ago at all, they are still alive...
Your freedom was also protected AFTER WW2 also. Your sweet Norway would be a minor outpost in the Soviet Union if not for the USA and other nations protecting you during the cold war... My wife's country was not as fortunate, and they suffered while in the West people like you were born and think that Norway would be ok if not for people like Americans. Short sighted people who say, "Oh, WW2 was a long time ago" and say the Israelis are committing holocaust...

I don't consider you a communist, I consider you someone I have wasted too much of my time on as it is, and I consider you a total racist (perhaps you could go help out the Palestinians in keeping with traditions?).

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Well, you can't blame a man for his country's sins. And you can disagree with Israel without being anti-Semitic. I agree he took it a bit far, but still.

 

[The Capo]

No, I didn't, but my family members did, and I have served in war. You don't have to take part in something to speak about it's important, that's a pretty lame argument. You know I dig your work, etc... but that was a ridiculous point. If we can only talk about things we partook in, we wouldn't have much we could even talk about, would we.

I suppose that makes sense, having pride in something is one thing. But I wouldn't necessarily use it against someone in an argument, but to each his own. I do disagree that the argument is lame though, I think it is a valid point, but again different strokes for different folks. To a degree you are correct in saying that many Europeans owe their current lifestyle and existance to the men who fought and died (or were severely injured) before them, I just don't think there is an eternal debt, at least not to the current leaders of America. I too have family members that fought in WWII, and I am proud to say that, but on a personal level I wouldn't try to use it as a weapon in an argument. I basically just like Doug Stanhope a lot and rembered this joke, so I figured I'd post it. But as far as this statement goes...

The point was, the USA bashing is ridiculous and completely uncalled for in this thread... where I was just pointing out that per Civ mechanics the EU, which is not sovereign and what's more, basically a flash in the pan that hasn't had a huge impact on the world, is an inappropriate nation for the game... it would be like having the NATO or the WARSAW Pact in the game as one nation.

...I entirely agree with you. I can't stand it when people bash my country, which is why I try my best not to do the same to other people's countries. Anyone can say what they'd like about the United States, and for sure we have made our mistakes in the past, but we are a pretty historically charitable people (easily the most in the world, look it up), we are historically tolerant (again, we've had our issues, but look at France and Switzerland with their anti-muslim stuff), and in general have done things and fought in wars that we didn't have to (and many countries that probably should have didn't) but did because it was the right thing to do. Again, there was no reason to bash the United States over what you said, you are right in both the fact that the EU is not a civ (nor should it really be a civ outside of a mod of some type) and the fact that it certainly has its issues and may not survive the next decade if it continues down the path it is going. In fact I actually said this in my post.

As far as the Israeli/Palestinian thing goes; I am actually pretty torn on the issue. I think Israel's decisions recently have been foolhardy, but would I call it a holocaust? Absolutely not. It diminishes how awful the holocaust was, and I don't mean that to say that children bombed by Israel, or made homeless, or starved or what have you isn't bad. The two are not related. But on the same note, the very people who push Israel into these actions are completely wrong, barbaric, and in many respects uncivilized. They take advantage of people and get them to do things they probably wouldn't do, and while I am an atheist and do not like organized religion at all, I think it is terrible what these people are doing in the name of their faith. It just seems like an impasse that won't end for decades and decades (possibly centuries) to come, and it is pretty bad.

But VeBear, you are pretty wrong for equating US support for Israel (which has not been as staunch lately, and this is entirely the case) with anything kochman says. You don't know his politics, you don't know who he voted for or voted against, and so for you to equate what previous leaders of the United States have done or haven't done is just as wrong, in my opinion, as him saying you owe a debt to the United States for your current lifestyle. In fact I think it is worse. But ultimately I think my main point is that blind nationalism causes arguments like this to occur, and it is difficult to come to a consensus (or even agree to disagree) when nationalism is behind it.

I know this is basically saying "do as I say and not as I do" at this point, but can we please drop this? I like both of you guys, and we are here to mod civ, not to argue about this kind of stuff. That is what the off topic forum is for after all.

EDIT: And Kochman, that SS thing was a bit unfair. Most likely VeBear wasn't alive then, it wouldn't be fair to accuse some teenage German kid today with complicity with the SS (or us with the killing of Native Americans, or black slavery), just as I don't think it is really fair to equate VeBear with the SS, although I understand why you brought it up.

 

[kochman]

Yes, basically, I just got tired of the completely unsolicited USA bashing, when we were talking about LHs and the mechanics of the game...

Hyana, of course, you are right as well, you can disagree with Israeli policy and not be a racist, but obviously this guy goes off the deep end when he says Israel is committing Holocaust... They are constantly under attack internally, and almost constantly externally... this after having suffered through the real Holocaust. To equate them with the Nazis means you really aren't paying attention to any facts and in my book, means you are a racist because you go to such extremely irrational lengths to condemn the Israeli government.

Sorry I got so off topic, I shouldn't have bit into it, but I get so tired of seeing the USA bashed all the time, especially when we are still, to this day, helping Europe out (Yugoslavia). So, I am back on topic now, with one more racist on my ignore list...

Capo, honest question (or anyone who can answer)... how long does it take to get good at making LHs? I mean, how many hours approximately would I need to put into it? A wild guesstimate is fine...
I don't think I am getting Civ5, so I might want to really get into Civ4 development more.

 

[The Capo]

Sorry I got so off topic, I shouldn't have bit into it, but I get so tired of seeing the USA bashed all the time, especially when we are still, to this day, helping Europe out (Yugoslavia). So, I am back on topic now, with one more racist on my ignore list...

You should add Sagitario to that list, he is an apartheid-supporter who actually accused me of being an anti-semite because I said that the mentality that lead to apartheid is basically the same mentality that lead to things like the holocaust (I didn't specifically say the holocaust but he took it to that level). Then he posted a link to a youtube video on my profile/visitor page making the case for apartheid. So I deleted it and ignored him. Anyway...

Capo, honest question (or anyone who can answer)... how long does it take to get good at making LHs? I mean, how many hours approximately would I need to put into it? A wild guesstimate is fine...
I don't think I am getting Civ5, so I might want to really get into Civ4 development more.

Well, obviously I can't really give you a specific answer. It depends partially on your artistic abilities (or sensibilities I should say) and your mastery of blender. I wouldn't say I got really good at making LHs until about my fourth LH or so. Having said that, I think the LH-making community has improved by leaps and bounds so you might get the support you need to get good quickly (I only had Ekmek at my disposal, which is a great resource of course, but it was only him). You might want to give it a shot, and at least try two before deciding you can't do it. The first one is going to be a pain in the ass though.

My suggestion would be to make the first one something simple that you can already envision in your head.

 

[Xyth]

Yes, basically, I just got tired of the completely unsolicited USA bashing, when we were talking about LHs and the mechanics of the game...

No. You were the one who took a gentle swipe at the EU to begin with, then when several Europeans responded you accused them of being ungrateful. It all built from there and quickly got out of hand. I notice you didn't/couldn't respond to my comment about why they aren't grateful. So to say it was unsolicited is a fallacy.

America has done a lot of good but also a lot of terrible stuff to the world. So have the EU. I don't think either side can point the finger without being hypocritical. My country ain't perfect either but thankfully we're small and remote and thus when when we do make mistakes we tend to only hurt ourselves. Big and powerful countries/organizations need to held much more accountable in my opinion.

As for Israel, as far as I'm concerned they are a rogue state and shouldn't be treated any different than North Korea (but I should mention I consider ALL nuclear armed countries as rogue states more or less). It is utterly inappropriate to compare Israel's disgusting treatment of the Palestinians to the Holocaust, but it is even more wrong for them to use the Holocaust to justify it.

Finally, I never judge individuals on the actions of their government, unless they blindly support said government. Most Americans I've met have been fantastic people, same with Europeans and Israelis. And Arabs and Chinese for that matter too. Aussies though....

 

[kochman]

You were the one who took a gentle swipe at the EU to begin with

Saying the EU is falling apart, which in many respected opinions it is, is hardly a swipe.
Emotional reactions to the problems the real life situation presents then manifested themselves in the oh so typical USA bashing, a favorite European hobby. It really was completely off topic whereas my initial point was on topic... we just had to keep bringing up the USA... while debating if the EU should be a civ nation... completely off topic.

I didn't respond to your post initially because I honestly didn't see it. Looking at it now, I don't care to respond to it, because it's ridiculous.

Go on hating America, if that is your thing... but if the crap hits the fan in Europe again, the fact is, the USA will be there to help you again (2 world wars, the Marshal Program, Cold War protection from CCCP, Bosnia/Kosovo), whether you are grateful for it or not (that's just how "selfish" we are as a nation).


CAN WE PLEASE MOVE ON NOW?

 

[Xyth]

w

Saying the EU is falling apart, which in many respected opinions it is, is hardly a swipe.
Emotional reactions to the problems the real life situation presents then manifested themselves in the oh so typical USA bashing, a favorite European hobby. It really was completely off topic whereas my initial point was on topic... we just had to keep bringing up the USA... while debating if the EU should be a civ nation... completely off topic.

The original topic was whether someone could make a leaderhead for the the EU. It then shifted to whether the EU even deserved to be represented as a civ, begun by your comment. The anti-Americanism began later, yes.

I didn't respond to your post initially because I honestly didn't see it. Looking at it now, I don't care to respond to it, because it's ridiculous

Ridiculous how? It's the truth.

Go on hating America, if that is your thing... but if the crap hits the fan in Europe again, the fact is, the USA will be there to help you again (2 world wars, the Marshal Program, Cold War protection from CCCP, Bosnia/Kosovo), whether you are grateful for it or not (that's just how "selfish" we are as a nation)

I don't hate America, just arrogance. I hate being told I, or anyone, should let our gratitude for something that happened many years ago make us turn a blind eye to all the appalling stuff that their country has done since.

My country also helped Europe in both World Wars, helped America in Vietnam, is currently helping America in Afghanistan but thankfully not in Iraq. And we're about as far removed from these conflicts as it is possible to get. Both my grandfathers were there on D-Day, one came home, one didn't. We're small but we do our bit to help because we want to be good world citizens, not to demand gratitude from everyone in the pursuit of our own ends.



EDIT: I've seen Band of Brothers, good movie based on a good bunch of soldiers. Can't base a defense of a country's foreign relations on that though. I could suggest that you watch pretty much any Vietnam or Gulf War movie (especially those NOT made in the U.S.) as a counterpoint but I won't cos trying to judge history from movies is silly.

 

[phungus420]

The only group of people that are more annoying then stupid redneck Bush supporters are Eurobrat punks who always act so goddamn high and mighty. Last time I traveled to Europe in 2003, it seemed like the only past time of your average European was upturning their prissy little noses. While the conservatives in the US have slowly been destroying my country, and are totally responsible for our current economic depression, thanks to the failed policies of Reagan, they at least have conviction, they believe in something. The Eurpobrats who seem to only be able to America bash only do so because they think it's cool, it certainly has nothing to do with any knowledge of history or in depth thought. Truth is the US doesn't have a spotless record, but neither does any other nation on Earth, and the US's record certainly ain't worse then anyone elses. Hell, who drew us into Vietnam (give you a hint it starts with Fra)?

 

[The_J]

Back to leaderheads, maybe?
A "european civ" could be a potentially for a better version of the next war mod or anything else in the near future.
I say "could". It's a game, it's about fiction, about alternate history.

 

[Manifold]

some more possible European LH:

Charlemagne: Some people call him the first European.
Charles de Gaulle and Konrad Adenauer: Two of the founding fathers of Europa.

The best thing about this LH´s is, they are already in game or in the database

Here are some more inspirations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlspreis.

 

[The Capo]

The only group of people that are more annoying then stupid redneck Bush supporters are Eurobrat punks who always act so goddamn high and mighty. Last time I traveled to Europe in 2003, it seemed like the only past time of your average European was upturning their prissy little noses. While the conservatives in the US have slowly been destroying my country, and are totally responsible for our current economic depression, thanks to the failed policies of Reagan, they at least have conviction, they believe in something. The Eurpobrats who seem to only be able to America bash only do so because they think it's cool, it certainly has nothing to do with any knowledge of history or in depth thought. Truth is the US doesn't have a spotless record, but neither does any other nation on Earth, and the US's record certainly ain't worse then anyone elses. Hell, who drew us into Vietnam (give you a hint it starts with Fra)?

Hell yeah.

I'm starting to get a little pissed by this European , if you want to get down to it you guys started both world wars, started this crap with Israel, started Vietnam, etc. The fact of the matter is Europe had all the power until they decided to implode upon themselves and fight a bunch of wars, and then one of your colonies became strongest now you detest it, get over it, we are the spawn of your enlightenment, perhaps not perfect, but you made the US. Don't be jealous that it wound up surpassing you.

If you really wanna get all Euro-nationalist on us at least hone up to what you've done. Stop acting like we started anything, you guys woke up the sleeping giant that was America, we were isolationist and didn't want anything to do with any of this and you all insisted on dragging us in. I'm tired of hearing this crap. OFF.

EDIT: I tried to be nice and neutral about this, but there is only so far I can go before I gotta step in and be a douche, plus I'm drunk.

 

[SIMPA]

Hell yeah.

I'm starting to get a little pissed by this European , if you want to get down to it you guys started both world wars, started this crap with Israel, started Vietnam, etc. The fact of the matter is Europe had all the power until they decided to implode upon themselves and fight a bunch of wars, and then one of your colonies became strongest now you detest it, get over it, we are the spawn of your enlightenment, perhaps not perfect, but you made the US. Don't be jealous that it wound up surpassing you.

If you really wanna get all Euro-nationalist on us at least hone up to what you've done. Stop acting like we started anything, you guys woke up the sleeping giant that was America, we were isolationist and didn't want anything to do with any of this and you all insisted on dragging us in. I'm tired of hearing this crap. OFF.

EDIT: I tried to be nice and neutral about this, but there is only so far I can go before I gotta step in and be a douche, plus I'm drunk.

What the fu...k!!!???
Camon guys if we can have america swordsman and knight then we can have EU as a nation too....
I really dont understand why is this gone so far it is a GAME...
For me it is strange when playing civ and I get attack by american knight.......but it is game so gather up guys this is just become STUPID...
I see Texas,California made as civ and no one wrote nothing negative about that so I dont undertand why is this such a big deal to you USA...
The Capo

 

[kochman]

EDIT: I've seen Band of Brothers, good movie based on a good bunch of soldiers. Can't base a defense of a country's foreign relations on that though. I could suggest that you watch pretty much any Vietnam or Gulf War movie (especially those NOT made in the U.S.) as a counterpoint but I won't cos trying to judge history from movies is silly.

The point of watching the movie isn't to defend my country's foreign relations.
It is so you can see the suffering Americans went through over Europe's problems. We really could have just stayed isolated, but in the end, we threw in with the good guys.

I don't go around demanding grateful behavior, but completely unsolicited USA bashing is annoying as hell, and based on being ungrateful.

 

[Xyth]

The point of watching the movie isn't to defend my country's foreign relations.
It is so you can see the suffering Americans went through over Europe's problems. We really could have just stayed isolated, but in the end, we threw in with the good guys.

My country did the same thing, though admittedly we were very tied economically to Britain at the time so I guess we were protecting our interests somewhat. Regardless, a lot of us fought and died for Europe, including one of my grandfathers.

Of course since then Britain left us high and dry on our export arrangement, France sent terrorists to bomb us and tested nuclear weapons in our backyard. Some thanks huh? I dislike EU politics as much as I dislike American.

I don't go around demanding grateful behavior, but completely unsolicited USA bashing is annoying as hell, and based on being ungrateful.

You solicit it with statements like this one, made in any of your posts in this discussion. You think USA bashing is annoying, well it's not as annoying as someone saying we shouldn't bash America we should instead be grateful. Should we be grateful for America illegally invading and occupying countries? Or for interfering in and even overthrowing democratically elected governments? Or for refusing to adequately reign in or punish a greedy Wall Street that caused financial hardship worldwide? And don't even get me starting on the hypocrisy of nuclear weapons.

All that happened/is happening in my lifetime, yet the heroism of Easy Company was long before. See why gratitiude is difficult for us? Europe is just as bad, if not worse.

Normally I refrain from rants like this, and this forum is certainly not the place for it. But your delusional belief that we shouldn't bash the USA because we are 'ungrateful'... sorry that just boils my blood.



EDIT: To make it clear, I am not European (though I have European ancestry) and I live in New Zealand.

 

[kochman]

That is pretty typical of NZ... basically a lot of young, displaced "eurobrats" who think they know so much but have never really experienced anything major in life...
"Eurobrats" being defined as the under 30 crowd of the western world who picks on the USA because being so large and influential we are an easy target and it makes you seem cool.
Your USA bashing is petty, but that's the culture you are growing up in, a culture that wants to criticize the USA... I would recommend that you look at history "in toto", instead of picking and choosing this and that thing to complain about, but I realize that would make you unpopular where you live, so don't worry about it.

As I said before, go ahead, bash and/or hate the USA... we will be there to bail you New Zealanders out, too, whether you appreciate it or not... or do you think you stopped the Japanese without the USA doing the large majority of the work/dying in that theatre? (That, by the way, is why you should have gratitude, because we would suffer like Easy Company did TODAY to save you if that situation arose).
Don't answer that question, it was rhetorical.

Xyth, sorry, but I am done responding to you... you are not on the ignore list, I just realize that debating this with you about this about as productive as banging one's head in one's car door again and again and again, and slightly more painful. You think you know a lot... and there is no telling you otherwise. The folly of youth.

 

[The Capo]

I've decided to no longer partake in this discussion, and suggest everyone do the same.