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Leaders

xmen510

xmen510

Emperor
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
1,456
Location
London Ontario, Canada
Leaders & King Units List:

Spoiler :
Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Aragorn II

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Khazâd:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar
 
Let's see...

Both Finrod and Turgon seem like they could be good Noldor leaders as well, though Turgon could be a hero/captain. I don't think Galadriel was particularly important when the rest of the Noldor were, so she doesn't seem like a good choice.
(EDIT: Wasn't thinking about needing to keep it to three leaders, so Gil-galad might have to go if we put Finrod in. Fingolfin and Finwë absolutely have to stay.)

Fëanor alone seems OK as a Fëanorian leader, I don't remember the relative importance of his sons so I can't say which would be better for leader candidates and which would be heroes/captains. We might do something interesting with the sons to make the Fëanorians unique, and maybe have a Son of Fëanor unit that acts something like a Grigori Adventurer.

Olwë deserves a place as a Teleri leader too. And don't forget that Elwë and Thingol are the same person, so it may be best to leave him as a Sindar leader. And IDK about Celeborn, AFAIK he was more important after there were few enough Teleri that he was more a leader of the Sindar. (Still would leave him out as a Sindar leader though.)

Lúthien really didn't lead anybody, so she doesn't really fit as a leader. On the other hand, Elrond was a fairly important Sindar leader and probably should be in there.
Lúthien might be a Great Bard or whatever, or maybe something special with the Simarilli that I've been thinking about. (I've got some interesting ideas about them.)

Vanyar's fine, not much you can do with them.

That's a lot of leaders for Númenor, we might want to shrink the list a little. Elros and Ar-Pharazôn are necessary, and Tar-Palantir is a good choice too, but I don't know about the other two.

For Arnor and Gondor, there are some difficulties. I don't really like the idea of them both sharing three leaders even if all three fit both each equally. Plus, as it stands I think they both have too many overall, I think three total is a good upper limit for any civ. It's hard though, since Elendil, Isildur and Aragorn all deserve to be leaders, but so do the others that have been chosen for each civ.

I made a mistake and assumed Beorn needed a diaeresis, but apparently he doesn't.

The rest are good as they stand, except I think we should remove one from the Longbeards to fit the three-leaders guideline.

Oh, and what leader traits have we decided on? It'll help to know what to pick from when deciding.
 
Idea for Gondor and Arnor: Elendil can switch between them, but Isildur goes to Arnor and Gondor gets Anárion and Aragorn. Looking over the other Gondorian leader choices, they don't seem as important. Arvedui completes the set as an Arnorian leader.

And the Sindar Thingol was the same as Elwë, Thingol II or whatever was a title of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien who also ruled Doriath after Thingol died.
 
We're ninja-ing each other right and left.
 
Smart.

Couple more suggestions:
I don't know who Enel and Imin are. They're not on the Encyclopedia of Arda.
I do think it should be Olwë instead of Elwë for the Teleri. I also think we need Thingol (that is, Elwë) as a Sindar leader, he was immensely important throughout the First Age.
I don't have any problem with Eärendur as an Arnorian leader, though I do think having Elendil for both works too.

Diacritics: I messed up on Beorn like I said, it should just be plain Beorn, and Anárion has an accent too.
 
Some comments on the list: I would suggest to also for the elves leave later leaders that were important in for example the third and second age (i.e. Gil-Galad, Celeborn). Galadriel as a ringbearer was important maybe from the Noldor.

For the house of feanor: maybe Celebrimbor, the one who made the rings. Celeborn definetly is of the Teleri (or Falmari) and Cirdan is also as a ringbearer very important so I would put him back in.

I don't like the split for Arnor and Gondor: Aragorn II definetly should go to both, but according to the Silmarillion which details the landing of Elendil, etc. in Middle Earth says that Elendil founded Arnor and that his sons Isildur and Anarion founded Gondor (one had a seat in Minas Anor, the other in Minas Ithil and they both ruled from Osgiliath). Of course they were high kings of the entire kingdom but this split seems like a better choice if we have to split them.

A last remark: do we have to limit it to three and if so why? I think it is not a problem to have more, or even to have different number of leaders for different civs.
 
Three is the limit for FFH, and any more just seems like a lot. Sure, you can go over, but it just seemed like a good guideline.

I don't know about ringbearers being leaders, but if it works, sure. I also don't have any problems with later leaders if we can make them work well.

I forgot that about Gondor and Arnor. So instead we have (at least) Aragorn, Elendil and Arvedui for Arnor, and Isildur, maybe Anárion, and Aragorn for Gondor? It also doesn't seem like a bad idea to cut Anárion and replace him with someone else important for Gondor.
 
The hard thing with the Teleri and the Sindar is that they are the same people with the same Leaders. The only thing that differentiates them is the time that they went to Valinor (2 separate groups).

I will also incorporate your ideas (T F & Berenthor) into the above list of mine. I will give a new post when completed.

T F: Enel & Imin are the two elves that awoke and those subraces of Elves are decended of them. It made it easier for Leaders to inlcude them, but they can be removed.
 
AFAIK, Sindar is the name for anybody who left the journey to Valinor after it started. Most, if not all, of them were Teleri, but it's not because they're Teleri. The Sindar have a significantly different set of leaders.

As for Enel and Imin, I don't think they're well-known enough to include. Except for the Vanyar there are enough people if you want to fill out three leaders anyway.

I'm working on finding music sections for leaders right now. I'll post them when I've got some stuff.
 
Let's try this again:

I have incorporated your ideas (T F & Berenthor) and my own:

Vanyar: Indis (Grandmother of Galadriel), Galadirel
Noldor: House of Fëanor: Curufin (Son of Fëanor, Father of Celebrimbor - Thus a direct line of Leadership)
Teleri: Lenwë (Ruled during the time of Elu Thingols' Disappearance)
Rohirrim: Perhaps Helm Hammerhand could be a Captain and Éomer could be the third Leader.

I left the Dunlendings, Easterlings and Haradrim alone so we have names for Captains & Heroes.

Leader List:

Spoiler :
Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Lenwë, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Cirdan, Elu Thingol

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë, Indis, Galadriel

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Palantir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Eärendur

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard, Brand

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Dwarves:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar
 
List looks mostly good. I think Elwë needs to be called Thingol, since his full Quenya name is Elwë Singollo but in Sindarin it's Elu Thingol (and the Sindar don't speak Quenya).

Only other suggestion is to replace Narmacil I with Hyarmendacil I, the king under whom Gondor reached its greatest height.

And unfortunately half of the song files I have for the soundtrack are corrupted, so I have to go through and rip them off of the disks again. Might take a while.
 
Not a problem with the music. That won't be needed for a little bit yet, so you have time. I will change Narmacil I. I will also change Elwe (you were the one calling him that by the way!).

Also, I am having a large Problem with the Vanyar. We won't get anymore names for them. All that the term "Vanyar" or "Eldar" means is the first group of elves to arive is Valinor. It isn't actually a Race. The Vanyar ARE the Noldor. So for now, unless decided otherwise I will leave in Imin, the First Among Elves.
 
xmen510 said:
I will also change Elwe (you were the one calling him that by the way!).
Click to expand...
I think I said to call him Thingol earlier, but oh well ^_^

Also, I am having a large Problem with the Vanyar. We won't get anymore names for them. All that the term "Vanyar" or "Eldar" means is the first group of elves to arive is Valinor. It isn't actually a Race. The Vanyar ARE the Noldor. So for now, unless decided otherwise I will leave in Imin, the First Among Elves.
Click to expand...

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Vanyar
That should help clear it up for you. Reading on there, I also don't have a problem with Imin or whatever, but he doesn't seem that important as a leader, so it might be OK to just leave that slot empty.

One thing I didn't notice on the list: I don't think Dior really counts as Telerin - he was the son of Beren and Lúthien, and if anything he's Sindar. I think Cirdan works as a Telerin leader.
 
Berenthor said:
A last remark: do we have to limit it to three and if so why? I think it is not a problem to have more, or even to have different number of leaders for different civs.
Click to expand...

The main reason I think it should be limited to 3 is:

For some, it will be much easier as there are very few names available. This way we won't have to make up as many names for the Captains & Heroes.
 
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