Leaders

[xmen510]

One thing I didn't notice on the list: I don't think Dior really counts as Telerin - he was the son of Beren and Lúthien, and if anything he's Sindar. I think Cirdan works as a Telerin leader.

Ah, but Luthien is Thingols Daughter. He was the Heir of Thingol and Thingol was both Teleri & Sindar. As I said, names are getting scarce but i will check out that link and then see about updating if there is good info there. I have been using a different source up until now. If this one proves good, I'll use it more.

EDIT: I put Indis in for Imin. She is Galadriels Grandmother (and thus Vanyar)

 

[T_F]

I guess my objection isn't that he's not Telerin, he just really doesn't count as a leader of the Teleri. I'm counting all Teleri still in Middle-earth by the beginning of the First Age and after as Sindar.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sindar
That should help too.

 

[xmen510]

I replaced Imin with Indis. Now we are getting into the name problem again. On those lists the only name not repeated in BOTH Teleri & Sindarin is Enel. All others are on both lists because they are the same people. The only difference is that one group of Teleri/Sindarin went to Valinor before the second group of the same people. If you can find other names then great. Otherwise we might have some problems unless you want to replace the Sindarin list of Leaders. Even then we can only have 1 or 2 Leaders for Teleri and 1 Captain and 1 Hero unless we take from the Sindarin list.

See the problem? It is hard to decide what to do in this situation.

EDIT: Also, most Teleri were killed off in the First Age!

 

[xmen510]

To be honest this is how the Elves are truly divided:

Vanyar/Noldor

Teleri/Sindar

 

[xmen510]

I am relenting and will put Lenwë in place of Dior.

 

[T_F]

The Teleri definitely are a problem. We might have to go with just one leader for them.
I don't think just one leader is such a bad thing though, if we don't have anyone else then oh well. If we really need to we can include some of the Teleri from Middle-earth, but unless we want to change the civ list we should focus on the Teleri as the Teleri in Aman. I can see your problem though.

Suggestions:
Teleri: Olwë, someone else if they present themselves (if we absolutely have to Círdan, but he's really more Sindarin)
Sindarin: Thingol, Elrond and probably Thranduil

EDIT: Ninja-ed, Lenwë actually doesn't sound bad as a Telerin leader.

EDIT EDIT: You can at least divide those two divisions by skills and lineage if nothing more:
Vanyar: Ingwë, staying put in Aman
Noldor: Finwë, craftsmanship
Teleri (the ones in Aman are I think what we should focus on): Olwë, seafaring
Sindar: Elwë/Thingol and all the other Teleri that left the journey after reaching Beleriand, forest-ness

That should help distinguish them.

 

[xmen510]

This is the current standing:

I have incorporated your ideas (T F & Berenthor) and my own:


Noldor: House of Fëanor: Curufin (Son of Fëanor, Father of Celebrimbor - Thus a direct line of Leadership)
Teleri: Lenwë (Ruled during the time of Elu Thingols' Disappearance)
Rohirrim: Perhaps Helm Hammerhand could be a Captain and Éomer could be the third Leader.

I left the Dunlendings, Easterlings and Haradrim alone so we have names for Captains & Heroes.

Leader List:

Spoiler :

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë Cirdan, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Eärendur

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard, Brand

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Dwarves:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

EDIT: I was working on this as you posted yours T F.

 

[xmen510]

Well, these are the ideas at the moment. If anyone has any further suggestions (including T F ), please post away!

 

[T_F]

I still gots moar ^_^ Though not many.

My only suggestions right now are to replace Círdan with Elrond for the Sindar, and either Lenwë or Celeborn with Círdan for the Teleri (since Círdan was more ship-y than Celeborn, and that's what we're going for with the Teleri). I'm also fine with just Olwë and Círdan for the Teleri too (2 total Telerin leaders).

I would also like some further input from other people.

 

[xmen510]

Elrond however was of Noldor descent as well as Sindar. Directly of Fingolfin. He was also the Herald of Gil-Galad. If we put him in, Where?

I think that Elrond might be a better "Captain" for the House of Fingolfin. That is an idea that I have had for a while. Glorfindel could be a Hero. Perhaps they could be switched around however. That can be discussed at a later time though if Elrond is not chosen as a leader.

 

[Sengir]

Yeesh, I go to sleep for one night, and when I wake up we've got a complete leaderlist

I agree putting in Elrond as leader is problematic because of his heritage (IIRC he's decendant from all to them )

I think I like Cirdan beter for the Teleri then for the Sindar. Also, no point in having three leaders everywhere, having both Teleri and Sindar with two leaves us with 13 leaders for the Quendi, 12 good men, 5 neutral, 4 evil (and 2 shadow of course).

 

[Berenthor]

Agreed on that, not every civ has to have three. About Elrond, I wouldn't know what is best. Maybe as a hero he would be better suited. Glorfindel could go to the other house of Noldor as a hero, but I'm not sure from which house he descended, I'll have to check that. Cirdan would be my choice for the Teleri. I would remove Galadriel from the Vanyar and leave them at two. Maybe we can differentiate them more by making them more of a "magic" civ, but not as much as in FFH2 of course. Maybe something like they have the grace of the Valar on their side. Just thinking . I like the rest of the list. The only sad part is that the few leaders of the entire Kingdom of men (Aragorn II and to a lesser extend Isildur and Elendil) can only be chosen by one of the two civs. If we have to split them then the split we have now is definetly the best choice though.

 

[Berenthor]

Some other thoughts: for Numenor, instead of Tar-Palantir, use Tar-Minastir:
"11. Tar-Minastir 1731 – 1869 With High King Gil-galad defeats Sauron and ends the War of the Elves and Sauron"
"24. Tar-Palantir 3177 – 3255 Attempted to bring back the old traditions of Númenor"

 

[Sengir]

That looks more impressive on the side of Tar-Minastir. I can't recall all of those Tar-s and don't have access to my books, so I can't look them up myself.

 

[Berenthor]

I just read a part of the Silmarillion again the last few days so it is still fresh. Plus a good site is tolkiengateway.net. It has a lot of info and is wiki style .

Some other comments I found out: First of all, were will we place the Haven of Umbar? I would suggest with the Haradrim but I'm not sure. Also, apparently the haradrim are the Mumakil and horseman, while the easterlings were employed also chariots instead of horseman so maybe they can have that as a UU. Here are two articles about the easterlings (apparantly a lot of tribes combined) and the haradrim:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Easterlings
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Easterlings

Depending on were we put Umbar, we can have two leaders for them extra, namely two black numenoreans who ruled from Umbar over the Haradrim: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Haven_of_Umbar. They were called Herumor and Fuinur.

 

[Sengir]

Herumor is allready on the list, adding Fuinur as another is good though, we are a little light on evil leaders.

 

[T_F]

Oh yeah, I found Fuinur there too and forgot to suggest him.
Umbar definitely is going to be a part of Harad.

Tar-Minastir works fine too. I was just thinking Tar-Palantir because he was the last good king of Númenor, but Minastir is a good choice if we want to balance Númenor's leaders by historical alignment - Elros is good, Minastir is neutral (since he wasn't really associated with any of that), and Ar-Pharazôn is evil.

About Elrond, I think he's OK as a Sindarin leader not because of heritage but because by the time he's really important most of the elves still in Middle-earth (including the ones he's in charge of) are all Sindar. I'm fine with him as a Noldorin Captain too though (and having 2 Sindar leaders is OK with me). Dropping Galadriel is fine too.

 

[xmen510]

I think that Umbar should go with the Haradrim. Gondor must take it back if they want it.

Also, what about my idea for Rohan? Helm as a Captain and Eomer as the third Leader.

Moved:

Cirdan (From Sindar to Teleri)

Added:

Fuinur (Haradrim)
Tar-Minastir (Numenor)
Elrond (Sindar)

Removed:

Indis (Vanyar)
Galadriel (Vanyar)
Lenwë (Teleri)
Tar-Palantir (Numenor)

Leader List: as of these changes

Spoiler :

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Eärendur

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard, Brand

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Dwarves:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

 

[xmen510]

Another Idea:

Eärnur:

He was the Steward of Angmar. The last King of Gondor, he was turned into a Wraith after losing his Battle with the Witch-King. This was we could have the Witch-King still with Mordor if we wanted. Or just for a second option for leader of Angmar.

 

[T_F]

AFAIK (and according to Tolkien Gateway) Eärnur wasn't canonically turned into a Nazgûl. He just went off to fight the Witch-king and never returned. He's presented as what you describe only in LOTRO, AFAIK.
And didn't we have Aragorn as a leader for Arnor in the slot Eärnur is on the list you posted? I don't remember him coming up before. I don't think he fits as an Arnorian leader either (as important as he may have been to Arnor) since he was king of Gondor far after the kingdoms officially split. It would be like having the president of Lithuania as a leader for Poland.

Personally, I prefer Helm as as the Rohirrim Leader and Éomer as a captain or hero, since Helm actually was king when what he's most known for happened, and Éomer was most important when he was just Third Marshall of the Mark. He did become king, but after everything was already over.

I wasn't paying attention before, but didn't we agree to merge Isengard and the Dunlendings, or did I just totally miss something?

I think the Teleri are OK with dropping Celeborn and just having two leaders, since both Olwë and Círdan stand out as being seafaring leaders (and seafaring is what we're going for with the Teleri), while Celeborn really doesn't.

Finally, I think the Fëanorians should only have Fëanor as their leader. I think that they as a civ should have something special with the Sons of Fëanor, maybe (like I said before) something like the Grigori Adventurer.

Rest of the list is wonderful. ^_^

As a side note, if we're calling the Elves Quendi, then we can't forget to call the Dwarves Khazâd.