Leaders

[xmen510]

Isengard is indeed separate. We are going to give them settlements (Kuriokas? from FFH2 idea). Eomer was instrumental in the 4th age. I can understand not including him as a Leader though.

Earnur was never included on my list for a Gondorian Leader. He became a wraith under the Witch-Kings control but was not an actual Nazgul. I just thought it would be a good option for a leader for Angmar if we wanted to have the Witch-King with Mordor.

 

[T_F]

Must have missed something about Isengard, I thought they had the one city but the settlements represented the Dunlendings.

Oh, I misread Eärendur as Eärnur. IDK if he fits though, since Tolkien Gateway describes his rule as 'uneventful'. We probably want someone more important.

 

[xmen510]

There is no one else, unless we make them up. Only those two are mentioned as far as I can find. It isn't a necessity, it was just an idea.

 

[T_F]

Good point, Arnor is totally boring until it splits. Maybe we can replace him with another instance of Aragorn II.

 

[xmen510]

I'm not sure we should be doubling up the Leaders. But that is up to concensus. Also, should Aragorn II be renamed Elessar, or should we leave it as?

Also, offer other suggestions for Arnor. In case we don't double Aragorn II.

 

[T_F]

Random Idea: Aragorn II for Arnor, Elessar for Gondor.

 

[xmen510]

Still the same person. What if both appeared in the same game?

 

[T_F]

I believe there's something you can do to avoid that, IDK. I know I've seen Decius in FFH as a leader for different civs, but I'm sure they would have kept him from appearing twice in one game.

It was just a naming suggestion, to have Aragorn as an Arnorian leader as the leader of the Rangers and Aragorn as a Gondorian leader as King of Gondor. On second thought though, total Rangers isn't what we want for Arnor, so maybe it doesn't work so well.

 

[xmen510]

Keep the suggestions comming. Also, we haven't ruled it out yet. If we can limit it so that only 1 appears in any 1 games, then it wouldn't be so bad.

What about the idea of either Aragorn II or Elessar?

 

[xmen510]

Current List:

Moved:

Cirdan (From Sindar to Teleri)

Added:

Fuinur (Haradrim)
Tar-Minastir (Numenor)
Elrond (Sindar)
Aragorn II/Elessar (Arnor)

Removed:

Indis (Vanyar)
Galadriel (Vanyar)
Lenwë (Teleri)
Tar-Palantir (Numenor)
Earendil (Arnor)
Brand (Northmen)

Leader List:

Spoiler :

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Aragorn II/Elessar

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II/Elessar

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Khazad:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

 

[Sengir]

I can see the merits of only having Feanor as a leader for his house, though I'm not completely opposed to including others.

Here's a rule of the thumb about Arnor: If we're struggling for a third leader, drop the third leader. I would keep Aragorn II as Aragorn II not Elessar for Gondor. Though he was king in name of Arnor, by blood, and leader of the Rangers, there was not much to be king about, so I think it might be best to not keep him on that list.

About Rohirrim, keep Helm as a leader, and Eomer as a hero/captain/whatever.

I don't think another leader for Angmar is necessary, though Earnur could be a hero for them.

 

[T_F]

I have no problem with dropping Aragorn from Arnor.

 

[Berenthor]

I would keep Aragorn for both, since in the old days there really were seperate kings of Gondor and Arnor, there was just one high king (Elendil & Isildur). But in the reunited kingdom there really was only one (Aragorn).

 

[xmen510]

So, we seem to be split on Aragorn to be included or not in both. We can leave Helm as is and have Eomer as a Captain. Sounds good.

 

[xmen510]

I think perhaps we should allow Aragorn II for both Gondor & Arnor. Most of the Kings of Arnor were not of note. That is what the problem has been, not that there were not enough to choose from, because there are plenty of Kings for that.

So, barring any comments to the contrary, I think we have our leader list. The only decision left is to decide on what name to use for Aragorn II/Elessar.

So, do we name him: Aragorn II or Elessar?

Leader List:

Spoiler :

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Aragorn II/Elessar

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II/Elessar

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Khazâd:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

 

[T_F]

I think I suggested dropping Celeborn for the Teleri (since he doesn't have much to do with ships), but other than that, the list is great.

I have no preference either way with Aragorn II or Elessar. I'll suggest Aragorn II, since he's most well known as Aragorn.

 

[Berenthor]

I would go with Aragorn II since it is more well known. I'll try to explain why I think this is actually more accurate: When the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor were founded, Elendil founded Arnor and became high king of Arnor and Elendil and Aldarion founded Gondor and became king of Gondor together. After the deaths of Elendil and Aldarion in the war, Isildur became high king of both Empires but became king of Arnor and his nephew became king of Gondor. After that the kingdoms were split. When Aragorn II became king at the end of the war of the ring, he became high king but also king of Arnor and Gondor, so he really was the only one who at the same time was king of both and it really became one kingdom with only one king. (end rambling now, hopefully this clears it up that it is not something made up).

For the rest, it is a good list. I don't know about Celeborn and Elrond but I wouldn't know how to change it differently.

 

[Sengir]

I would go with Aragorn II. Thanks for refreshing my memory about that Berenthor. I'd drop Celeborn from the Teleri, and I'm not sure about Elrond as either, though I think someone's (too lazy to look up) argument about him ruling mostly Sindar being more important then his heritage holds ground, so leave Elrond in.

 

[xmen510]

I will remove Celeborn from the Teleri list.

I will update Aragorn II's listing and remove the name Elessar. We shall leave him in for both Civ's.

Unless there are any further suggestions, I think we have our Leader List: So, Finalized or not?

Leader List:

Spoiler :

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Aragorn II

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Khazâd:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

 

[Sengir]

I like the list, though there has been some talk about having only Fëanor for the house of Fëanor. I have no idea who's in favor and who's against, so maybe a vote is in order? I could go either way on this one.