Learning Monarch

[Utenlok]

I know Currency is awesome. I hear many top players saying things such as "once you get it you cant go bankrupt". It is said by many, so I certainly dont doubt it. I, along with other lowbies I am sure, would love some more info on this. My new cities often cost more than the trade routes they add to the equation. And while I am still REXing I rarely have an awesome production city that I can spare just to build wealth. So what am I missing or doing wrong?

 

[goldys_lackey]

I'd use an archer to go barb hunting north and west of the corn. You already have a beaver pelt up there, maybe there's gold too? If you can grab it along with the corn then that's basically a free HA mill. Park one of those warriors down by Napoleon to see if he ever starts producing spears or axes. If not, then I would settle your third city, build an army, rush cyrus as Napoleon settles the jungle. Let him clear it but attack him before he gets elephants.

 

[coanda]

I know Currency is awesome. I hear many top players saying things such as "once you get it you cant go bankrupt". It is said by many, so I certainly dont doubt it. I, along with other lowbies I am sure, would love some more info on this. My new cities often cost more than the trade routes they add to the equation. And while I am still REXing I rarely have an awesome production city that I can spare just to build wealth. So what am I missing or doing wrong?

Consider founding a new city. It's going to add about 0.5 gpt per pop in civic upkeep. It'll also add 2-4 gpt in distance upkeep, and 1-2 gpt in number-of-cities upkeep empire-wide (until you've got a whole ton of cities, by which point your core cities should have developed enough that bankruptcy is no longer a concern). So right off the bat, you're paying anywhere from 3 to 7 gpt in costs to maintain that city.

When they settle, they get 1 commerce from their main tile, and 1 commerce from the starting trade route (potentially 2 or more, but 1 is worst-case). So without Currency, you start out potentially 5 gpt in the hole, and there's no easy way to fix this... you can't work merchant specs., can't build wealth, and unless you're lucky you don't have commerce resources like gold there to start working. You can slap down some cottages, but you'll have to grow to size-3 working 3 cottages before that balances out, which is likely 20+ turns in the future (by which time you've lost 100+ gold).

Now let's consider what happens after you've got Currency. At that point 1 production is worth 1 wealth, and it's easy to convert 1 food to 1 production (cities with food surplus can build workers/settlers, or use slavery and the whip). Now the city tile starts with +1 production. And you get a citizen, who works a tile. If that tile is at least 3-yield, the city starts out effectively at break-even, and only gets better as it's tiles get improved and it develops.

You don't need an awesome production city to build wealth. In fact, it's often better to build your wealth in little cities, while your awesome production cities build military units and wonders. Part of this is knowing when you can skip on infrastructure and not build something - building a library instead of wealth effectively costs you 90 gold, a marketplace 120 gold, and so forth.

 

[Utenlok]

So I found City6 and say forget monument, granary, library etc. Instead I just work the forested grassland and build wealth. It breaks even for now.

That makes perfect sense, but it is awfully hard not to build those buildings in that new city with nothing in it. I always build too many buildings.

I need a challenge game on not building. Kind of like the "No Wonders" game. I did a no granaries game on the CFC Huge Earth challenge and was amazed at how much I did not miss them.

Some things for me to think about for sure.

 

[Regas]

granary is the single most important building in the game imo
i had this building addiction too, time is needed to break bad habits though.
library (for running specs or oxford), granary, monument (if not CRE), barracks, forge are necessary imo.
maybe some temples in some cities too. other than that its a waste of hammers. at least until later ages (unis for OU, factories, etc). of course markets and such may be built in rich cities.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

So I found City6 and say forget monument, granary, library etc. Instead I just work the forested grassland and build wealth. It breaks even for now.

That makes perfect sense, but it is awfully hard not to build those buildings in that new city with nothing in it. I always build too many buildings..

The key is to specialize your cities when you're making your dotmap. Decide which ones will make units, run specialists, work cottages, etc. Once you've decided that, see if moving the city a bit will make it better for that job (which is different than better in general). Then plan your buildings accordingly.

 

[Gwynnja]

granary is the single most important building in the game imo
i had this building addiction too, time is needed to break bad habits though.
library (for running specs or oxford), granary, monument (if not CRE), barracks, forge are necessary imo.

Necessary and necessary NOW are two different things though.

 

[ShengWuLien]

When I first moved up to monarch, I spent a lot of time learning how to rush. So I learned to pull off an axe rush, a chariot rush, a horse archer rush, etc. Then I got rush happy. I started rushing in every game where there was an AI anywhere near me. Sometimes rushing was great, but other times the AIs I didn't rush expanded like crazy or I crashed my economy. I realized that I had to learn not just how to rush, but when to rush.

I think that this is where you are at in your game. You have to decide whether this is a rushing situation or not.

You could have rushed Cyrus and probably still could. But what would you get? one good city with marble. Moreover, alive Cyrus will help spawn bust the north. If he is dead, you have to do it yourself.

Alternatively you can probably settle several good cities to the south and west.

That seems right to me. I'd consider building a couple of chariots to have a look around--especially to the west--and settle some cities if there's space. Rushing Cyrus gets you nothing of particular value besides his capital, which you can take later if you need it.

 

[ShengWuLien]

Actually two city sites jump right out of the map: as others have mentioned, 1w of the copper is really nice, and then there's a decent production city down by the jumbos, especially if there's seafood. I'd be settling those two sites next, building chariots to scout the western lands, and keeping an eye on Naopleon/Ragnar.

 

[mtr12]

Just posting to say that VoU's posts are very helpful and enlightening. Sometimes it's hard to see the whole picture and improve your game when you don't know the mistakes you're making.

I'm speaking as a fellow Monarch player. And yeah, Currency/CoL are among the best techs in the game.

 

[squall78]

So I found City6 and say forget monument, granary, library etc. Instead I just work the forested grassland and build wealth. It breaks even for now.

That makes perfect sense, but it is awfully hard not to build those buildings in that new city with nothing in it. I always build too many buildings.

I need a challenge game on not building. Kind of like the "No Wonders" game. I did a no granaries game on the CFC Huge Earth challenge and was amazed at how much I did not miss them.

Some things for me to think about for sure.

I still have the building addiction. That + early rushing = STRIKE! Even with currency I was going broke. Finding out what to build in each city is a problem I'm trying to break.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I still have the building addiction. That + early rushing = STRIKE! Even with currency I was going broke. Finding out what to build in each city is a problem I'm trying to break.

You might review Builder's Bargain.

Two additional challenges to consider.

(1) Try a game where you are only allowed to build one type of building. Extra difficulty - no creative trait.

(2) Try a game where you are only allowed exactly one building.

Yes, you are allowed to drop down a level or two in difficulty....

 

[squall78]

You might review Builder's Bargain.

Gonna give this a try next game. Thanks.

 

[Mantic0re]

Sorry for the delay, got two sick step-kids at home. Posting on Laptop at work so I'll have to edit screenshots to this post when I get home.

I did manage to play up to turn 80ish, Switched from HBR to Math and completed that. I need to decide on the next tech.

I also settled city 3. Not on the 1W of copper, but 1sw of copper (iirc). Moving gave me more farm land for a better (and closer) production city. The trade off was waiting for 2nd border pop to get Furs.

Spoiler :

I've got some more chariots spawnbusting and have explored a little. Napoleon and I will share borders in the near future. Right now he has archers only. Most AI's have 4 cities now so I'm a little behind the city rush. I've whipped a settler and have him moving west to a Cow+gold+stone site.

Spoiler :

This city, and the next few will have to be spread out quite a bit in order to have food resources in the BFC. I'm worried this will become a problem. I don't like having to stretch this far with neighbors this close.



At this point I have limited build options. Maybe this is a queue that I should just tech and build HA for Nappy. I don't particularly like war but I think Fibonachi hit on an important point. I've seen so many rushes (and been on the receiving end of so many) that military options are the answer to everything

Spoiler :

Napoleon is closer than I like.

I've got two libraries and no cottages growing. I'm thinking maybe scientist are my source for research and I should work 4 while I'm pushing for the next tech. I'm really debating between Currency and Alphabet. If I assume Alphabet can be traded for when an AI has it then Currency is the winner. I just don't know how safe that assumption is. Alternately I could tech IW for the few jungle sites left and rush to these spots. These spots are closer than my western border cities would be.

With IW, I would be more inclined to claim a coastal Barbarian city south of the Elephants. (why, idk. To keep the AI from taking it and setting up shop so close to my Capital and Elephants)

There is no food for the elephants but there is a river for farms.

 

[Abegweit]

So I found City6 and say forget monument, granary, library etc. Instead I just work the forested grassland and build wealth. It breaks even for now.

No! Never do that. You should always be working improved tiles. Building wealth is fine but do it using quality tiles. Some food plus a grass mine is a good wealth configuration for a small city. You're also allowed to mix it up, you know. Ex. chop out a granary while building wealth most of the time.

This concept of switching between growth builds and development builds has many applications. For example, in the early game you might decide to grow your capital by spitting out warriors while simultaneously putting chops into a worker or a settler.

And just to re-iterate the most important point: do NOT work garbage tiles. Make sure you have enough workers so it doesn't happen. As a rule of thumb, a new city should have two workers devoted to improving the tiles around it. And they should start doing it the second the city is founded, maybe even before (e.g. make roads and start chops in preparation for the city).

 

[Mantic0re]

back from a week dealing with a sick family. Hope to make some headway on this game tonight.

I still have no real plan here. I'm currently debating between:

1) Peacefully settle Cow site in SouthWest, Claim barb city, Settle rice (and maybe elephants for 6-7 cities. This would probably mean going for Currency.
2) Take on Napoleon, At this stage, probably with Cats/Axes(are axes enough or should I take time for ironworking?). He's growing into jungle which I hope means he'll stall a bit. He's declared on me in every game I've seen him in so far, although he really dislikes washington atm.

No idea what the best answer is here, I'm terrible at "reading the map". Since I have city number 4 down so far from the capital I feel I've semi-committed to the first strategy.

 

[Utenlok]

I like the idea of that game where you dont build much, but that linked one is way too much bookkeeping for me.

how about 3 buildings max for every city, not counting your national wonders. and max of 2 world wonders build (capture as many as you like)

 

[ShengWuLien]

Paris is an absolute peach of a city, with double gold and floodplains galore. Seems like good land north and south of the French capital too, with plenty of riverside grasslands.

 

[coanda]

No! Never do that. You should always be working improved tiles. Building wealth is fine but do it using quality tiles. Some food plus a grass mine is a good wealth configuration for a small city. You're also allowed to mix it up, you know. Ex. chop out a granary while building wealth most of the time.

This concept of switching between growth builds and development builds has many applications. For example, in the early game you might decide to grow your capital by spitting out warriors while simultaneously putting chops into a worker or a settler.

And just to re-iterate the most important point: do NOT work garbage tiles. Make sure you have enough workers so it doesn't happen. As a rule of thumb, a new city should have two workers devoted to improving the tiles around it. And they should start doing it the second the city is founded, maybe even before (e.g. make roads and start chops in preparation for the city).

If you're settling the city as a panic blocking city to keep the AI out, it's ok to take a handful of turns to shake loose a worker elsewhere to get the city working an improved tile. But 95% of the time you want to have a worker there on the same turn the city is settled (or before) to start improving a tile.

 

[Mantic0re]

OK. Did a set of 20ish turn that didn't go so well. Gonna replay those. I started on Currency but never managed to finish. The two civs that had alpha wouldn't trade half of it to me for math. I'm low on Commerce and rushed to settle / block off the land which put me at 7 cities quickly (thanks to whips and chops) but at 0% slider I was loosing 1 gpt. This may not be a dire situation in more experienced hands but I think maybe a slightly slower expansion and a few more scientist would put me a better position.

There isn't much commerce and for most of this I didn't even have pottery. Maybe this is wrong but I have an impression that turn 90 is far too late to BEGIN working cottages.