Least Important Unit?

[wioneo]

Makes sense to me, but I will argue that using a sub to try to make a dent in enemy destroyers is a really lame use for a moderately expensive unit. If I've got radio for subs, then it's highly unlikely that I wouldn't have some sort of air units. While air units can fail in their attacks, they won't actually die in their first attempts to damage a destroyer. Plus, air units can be moved to the front in a single move.

Anyway, even if my idea for the regular subs will never actually be put into play, I did take something out of this discussion. I am absolutely going to use attack subs more frequently in exactly the way you've described using them as part of stacks.

I think that he's referring to using missiles to do the pre damage. I've started stockpiling these in one fort to be ready to send to the nearest friendly port to a sub. Gotta love those missiles...even if they fly sideways and don't make an explosion...

 

[champ82]

While I accept it may be able to do *something* in defense against AI idiocy (though I've never bothered), but in MP!? Its time to blow this 'Ironclads are good for defense' myth out of the water...

*Big disproof of Ironclads worth as defense specifically in MP, but also shows why they do so poorly against AI invasions. With pictures!*

In my MP game I used them as stationary units next to particularly important coastal cities that only have 1 or 2 tiles of naval entry points. You can park them on the same tile as frigates and whatever other naval units. I used them to defend against the possibility of an opponent invading a city in one turn. If my oponent landed units a couple of tiles away from my city then I could scramble some units from within my empire to defend the city.

The only thing you proved was that on the map you showed irconclads are useless.

On the map I played on, they were not.

They are not meant to be mobile or counter-attack units. They are meant to be tough sitting ducks that hang out (along with some frigates etc.) on water tiles next to important cities (such as a shrine, HE, wonder, GP Farm, culture race city etc.)

 

[champ82]

OK, it has been “proven” that ironclads are useless against blockades. And that is all that has been “proven.”

On a coastal city with 1 or 2 adjacent water tiles with ironclads defending them, the invasion and bombard scenarios that Ghpstage showed would not have been possible.

Ghpstage goes on to show or "prove" that the ironclad’s slow movement makes it a useless defender because it can not chase down weaker but faster units. This is tantamount to saying the longbowmen is a useless defender because it cannot chase down a chariot. Mobility is important, but mobility does not = defense.

If I were to say “pikemen can be helpful” and then someone made a world builder scenario of a city defended only by pikemen being attacked by a stack of macemen where the city obviously gets taken over, would I have been proven wrong? Think again.

Ironclads should not be the only unit in a player’s navy. They have a certain, small but useful role to fill. They are not necessary every game by any means, but can be helpful.

 

[mirthadir]

Indeed I never know why people never look for obvious unit synergies. Take a simple defensive scenario. A very simple way to greatly enhance the mobility of a frigate picket is to station the ironclad offshore as a floating base. You can now place the picket 2 moves offshore which prevents a galleon sprint in for the finish, even with major mobility bonus.

This is exactly like using a cav/MG mix to allow you to forward deploy the cav to harass reinforcements and force the other player to send in reinforcements only in escorted batches.

I mean seriously an Ironclad can't attack and kill ships annoying you, it must be useless for defending territory ... much like a MG.

On another note, you can get ironclads overseas reasonably easily once you hold a bridgehead. Whipping down a newly taken city can easily give you enough ironclads on a new land mass to give you local naval supremacy in the enemy's home waters. Even more powerfully Rushbuying them allows you to build ironclads in mass wherever you can set down a settler or take a city (and this is right about when a Rushbuy CE/MGB strat handily beats out anything else for production).

I'm not saying ironclads are good units, just that their limited mobility is not the end all be all of their usefulness. Certainly I build more of them to blockade the AI, hold chokepoints, and give me floating naval forts than I've used stealth destroyers for anything.

 

[Evya]

Probably Pikemans.
They come rather late and with my regular tech path I usually build Maces before them.

 

[wioneo]

Probably Pikemans.
They come rather late and with my regular tech path I usually build Maces before them.

Pikemen are anti mounted units. Their main use is to kill off knights/leftover horse archers. War elephants are better or equal as anti mounted units, if I remember correctly, and have a higher base strength.

EDIT: Yeah, elephants cost the same, have the same strength against mounted units(unpromoted), and have 2 higher against everything else, and come earlier. So pikeman are completely useless unless your cities are being attacked by mounted nits and you need fortification.

 

[JTMacc99]

Like a lot of the units on my list, certain specialty units won't get my consideration because I've found situations where they are VERY important. Most of my games require very few Pikemen, but in the occasional game where I'm about to face down a serious stack of knights, I LOVE the pikeman. Same idea for X-bows and anti-tank. When you need them, YOU NEED THEM. It's why I voted Submarine, although I now know about a situation where I could see NEEDING them. It's also why I'd consider Cuirassiers or Knights for my vote. I find it pretty rare for me to actually NEED either of those two units to accomplish a goal. I generally build more of them than either pikes or x-bows, but that doesn't make them more important.

I think that he's referring to using missiles to do the pre damage. I've started stockpiling these in one fort to be ready to send to the nearest friendly port to a sub. Gotta love those missiles...even if they fly sideways and don't make an explosion...

I don't think so. If I remember correctly, the original post was about the 80% withdraw chance as a useful way to make a dent in destroyers. For this to work, you need to then hide the severely damaged subs under unharmed surface ships, which one would assume are also destroyers. So the strategy is to build 24 strength subs, give them flanking II, sail them in packs with destroyers (therefore slowing down the destroyers to Sub speed), attack the enemy destroyers with the flanking subs and then finish them off with your own destroyers. I guess the next move would be to sail all of your terribly damaged subs back to a port for repairs and then do it again. Like I was trying to say, it sure seems like you'd be a lot better off building a couple aircraft carriers and attacking with fighters. Give one ship in the stack the medic promotion and you'll be able to repair your fighters out at sea, or you can even send the damaged ones back to shore and deploy fresh ones while only losing a single turn.

You can't do that with subs, and you can't reload your subs with missiles in the middle of the ocean.

As far as I'm concerned, the ordinary sub is almost worthless as a ship versus ship* weapon, and there's really no reason why that should be the case.




* I have been schooled on what they are good for, so until I start fighting wars with tactical nukes, I will continue to think the sub is just about the least important unit for me.

 

[Spectator20]

That many players think Musketmen are useless? As a gunpowder unit they can't be countered without promotions, unlike the macemen and knights on the field. They also aren't affected by walls and castles, so it's not always necessary to bombard a city with a castle down to 0% which takes forever. Draftable, I heard that macemen are also draftable if for some reason you got nationalism before gunpowder although I haven't done that ever.

I picked swordsmen, since they cost more than axemen and the 10% city attack bonus isn't all that much, and you lose the 50% versus melee.

Ironclads are another terrible unit most of the time, Ship of the Line is a lot more mobile.

 

[Killroyan]

From the list I simply picked the one unit that I hardly have ever build and that is the submarine. Battleships and destroyers are simply better if you ask me. I have build my share of ironclads to protect sea food. They are only defensive units if you ask me. Machine guns are units I really love. Great city defenders, good against airships (another unit I love) and incredible stack defenders.

 

[JTMacc99]

From the list I simply picked the one unit that I hardly have ever build and that is the submarine. Battleships and destroyers are simply better if you ask me. I have build my share of ironclads to protect sea food. They are only defensive units if you ask me. Machine guns are units I really love. Great city defenders, good against airships (another unit I love) and incredible stack defenders.

I think, if I survive long enough, in the Open Roll Play Challenge Atlantis game, I am going to build a bunch of submarines. Given that the other civs won't be able to build steel ships due to a lack of oil and uranium, it might be really useful to have a bunch of submarines firing torpedoes into the wooden ships shortly after they left the safety of their own cities.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Submarines also carry missile units. All kinds of missile units. Even the kind that completely eradicate stacks.

 

[JTMacc99]

Submarines also carry missile units. All kinds of missile units. Even the kind that completely eradicate stacks.

I remember you explaining this to me. Especially the part with the 64 tactical nukes/navy seals/mass capitulation demonstration.

 

[Berba]

Airship, what good do you think you do?
But I keep on building them, just because they are the first air units in the game!!

 

[6K Man]

Airship, what good do you think you do?
But I keep on building them, just because they are the first air units in the game!!

They're great for spotting subs - something no other air unit does.

 

[Killroyan]

Air ships are just wonderfull support units. As soon as I can build them I will build at least 8-12 of them and start harassing and bombing with them. You can even take cities with just cavalries since the top defenders are all hurt.

 

[Isikien]

Ironclad



I would like to build one but what use would I have for it?

 

[NonPrayinMantis]

I think that he's referring to using missiles to do the pre damage. I've started stockpiling these in one fort to be ready to send to the nearest friendly port to a sub. Gotta love those missiles...even if they fly sideways and don't make an explosion...

No, I'm referring to attacking with the sub itself. I have rarely ever built missles, let alone put them on subs.

NPM

 

[Berba]

But, what's up with the Ironclad?
Is it that bad?

 

[CornPlanter]

Ironclad



I would like to build one but what use would I have for it?

Coastal resources defender.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Coastal resources defender.

Are you going to build one for every coastal resource?

I'd rather use ships of the line, or ideally frigates + airships if I can trade for physics w/o major concessions. I guess an iron clad could serve in that role if truly needed though.