Lebensraum - Hitler's observation about America

[Borachio]

Hmm. Clearly you know a great deal more about this than I do.

I'm still uneasy about it. If it has little meaning, what's the purpose of it?

 

[Domen]

If it has little meaning, what's the purpose of it?

Tracing human migrations and sucking money from naive people who want to know answers to question "who am I", especially Americans.

I recommend everyone to avoid especially such services like iGENEA:

https://www.igenea.com/en/home

They are frauds who work in a similar way as fortune-tellers, it's barely legal.

And you better go to a fortune-teller than to iGENEA if you want to know your "origins", because she is much cheaper and her chance to tell you the truth is similar. If you still want to know "who am I", better choose something more reliable than iGENEA, like for example National Geographic's Genographic Project.

But these more reliable services will tell you something like this: "25% West European, 25% East European, 49% unknown European, 1% East Asian". Far less exciting than telling you that you are "30% Alexander the Great, 10% Persian Immortal and 60% Viking", or something like this. Which is what iGENEA does.

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Edit:

I have not ordered such a genetic test for myself, but I can give you results of a guy who shared his results on another forum. Before the test, he researched his genealogy in a usual way, checking ancestors. All his ancestors back to 1830 (as far as he got) were Germans, all with German-sounding surnames. Let's add that his ancestors shortly before emigrating to the USA lived in Western Pomerania, in Stettin and in several other neighbouring locations.

And here is what the result of his DNA test said:

I. Unassigned - 0,2%
II. European - 99,8%; including:

1. Northern European Groups - 38,6%; including:

a) Scandinavian - 1,2%
b) British & Irish - 0,1%
c) Nonspecific Northern European - 37,3%

2. Eastern European Groups - 19,1%

3. Southern European Groups - 1%; including:

a) Balkan - 0,5%
b) Nonspecific Southern European - 0,5%

4. Ashkenazi Jewish - 0,1%

5. Nonspecific European - 41,1%

IIRC, that was a test which included entire DNA - not only Y-DNA and mtDNA but also autosomal DNA.

==============================

And they also sent him info on how many people from their database have similar DNA to his DNA, and in which countries they live:

Country / number of matches out of total number of people in database from this country / percent of matches:

Matches for 12 Markers checked: 1 exact match and 59 very similar individuals

EXACT MATCH:

Scotland 1 out of 14645 < 0.1 %

GENETIC DISTANCE -1:

Canada 1 out of 452 0.2%
Germany 3 out of 15724 < 0.1 %
Ireland 33 out of 18923 0.2%
Northern Ireland 1 out of 1219 0.1%
Scotland 17 out of 14645 0.1%
United Kingdom 2 out of 12635 < 0.1 %
United States 1 out of 5383 < 0.1 %
Wales 1 out of 2613 < 0.1 %

Matches for 25 Markers checked: none
Matches for 37 Markers checked: none
Matches for 67 Markers checked: none

The more markers are checked, the more detailed is comparison. So he had no "exact clones" anywhere.

 

[Domen]

This 0,1% of his Jewish admixture is "scary" - it is good that his family emigrated before Hitler's rise to power.

It means that 1 out of 1000 of his ancestors was a Jew, and 999 were Non-Jews. But the Nazis liked nit-picking.

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Wiki article about "multiracial Americans" mentions Bill John Baker, who is 1/32 Cherokee (other links say that only 0,0312% Cherokee):

Spoiler :

Well, obviously 1/32 is 0,0312 - not 0,0312 percent, though, but 3,125 percent.

 

[Borachio]

I don't know. Those Nazis weren't all bad. To be a member of the SS, you were supposed to have documentary evidence that all four of your grandparents weren't Jewish. Yet Hitler couldn't supply anything for more than three.

 

[Algeroth]

Syphilis went back to the old world from the new and it did a lot of damage when it did so. I'm not sure of any others but I am sure there are examples. I guess the natives just proved much more susceptible to old world diseases than old worlders did to new world diseases. That or the new worlders didn't have very many virulent diseases to begin with owing to an overall lower population density, a lack of cities, livestock, etc.

Nope the syphilis is the only one and even in its case we are still not completely sure if it really came from the New World. It really boils down to the greater extent of domestication in the Old World. Influenza came from domesticated chickens, pox from cows (iirc).

 

[Domen]

Native Americans are also disadvantaged when it comes to Lactase Persistence, they don't produce lactase enzyme and can't drink milk as adults (only in childhood). This is also related to the extent of domestication and the presence (or lack in this case) of milk products in diet during centuries.

 

[Borachio]

Isn't that lactose intolerance a myth, though? I thought it was. It's true that only Europeans seem able to tolerate milk in large quantities, I think. But my understanding is that other adult humans can tolerate up to a pint a day. Or something. I may have remembered it all wrong, though.

I've gone off milk myself recently, too. It is fairly indigestible stuff, imo.

 

[Phrossack]

Mongolian nomads are certainly lactose tolerant. Milk, probably mainly mares' and camels', makes up a very large part of their diet.

It seems to me that lactose tolerance depends in large part on how much dairy you continue to consume after infancy.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Mongolian nomads are more lactose tolerant than most Asians, but less so than many Europeans. They do subsist largely on dairy products, but not on much fresh milk. They eat a sort of yogurt and drink a fermented milk beverage. Most of the lactose is predigested for them by microbes in the process.

On the other hand, horse milk is much higher in lactose than cow milk or goat milk (although not a high as human milk).

Exactly how much a person can tolerate depends on genetics as well as continued lactose consumption throughout life. It is pretty common for the lactose intolerant to be able to handle up to a pint per day, but for some a cup would be too much. (This is ignoring that some people actually develop a lactose allergy, which is much worse than merely not producing enough enzymes.) Lactose intolerance is much worse on an empty stomach, or if the milk is consumed quickly in one session rather than spread throughout the day.

 

[Domen]

It's true that only Europeans seem able to tolerate milk in large quantities, I think.

Nope, there are "Lactase Hotspots" also in India, in the Middle East, in other parts of Asia and in Africa.

Darker = more % of people can drink milk (the darkest shade is >90%); lighter = less % of people can drink milk:

As Phrossack pointed out, ethnic Mongols have a very high percent of lactase persistence (around 99%).

 

[warpus]

That's just for cow milk, right? Do such maps exist for goat milk and so on, or is cow milk special in some way that it messes with so many stomachs?

/learningaboutmilk

 

[Borachio]

Could one consider continuing to consume milk beyond childhood a sign of infantilism? Or is it just taking advantage of a cheap and available source of protein?

A great deal of food we are persuaded to consume looks like so much baby food to me. White bread, fizzy drinks, easily digested sweet milksop foods, alphabetic spaghetti and the like.

I have something of a quizzical eye, though.

Moreover, nowadays, there's a disturbing increase in the amount of ready meals on display in supermarkets. Where are we heading?

 

[Phrossack]

Could one consider continuing to consume milk beyond infancy a sign of infantilism?

Infants also have a habit of breathing, which many continue into adulthood.

Milk is wonderful and I wouldn't care to live without it.

 

[Domen]

"You are all illegal":


Link to video.

Spoiler :

But isn't the guy who says this also a descendant of "illegal immigrants" from Siberia?

 

[Domen]

I don't know. Those Nazis weren't all bad. To be a member of the SS, you were supposed to have documentary evidence that all four of your grandparents weren't Jewish. Yet Hitler couldn't supply anything for more than three.

Ashkenazi Jews are indeed a genetically specific group, which was perhaps initially not the case - they emerged in Roman times from a mixture of "original" Middle Eastern Jews + South European converts to Judaism, in proportions of about > 60% to < 40%. But later, over many centuries, due to strong habit of not marrying outside their own group, Askhenazi Jews became a largely homogenous population (i.e. today there are no Askhenazi Jews who are 99% South European and others who are 99% Middle Eastern, but almost all of them are over 60% Middle Eastern and close to 40% South European - they are strongly mixed but within the group, not with other groups, therefore they can be considered as a genetically distinct population).

A GENETICALLY DISTINCT GROUP

One standard counterargument to any thesis suggesting that the Ashkenazi Jews are in some way biologically different or special is that they are adherents of a religion rather than a race or ethnic group in the strictest sense, and that therefore they cannot be genetically distinct.

Some have brought up conversion as a mixing mechanism, often mentioning Elizabeth Taylor or Sammy Davis Jr., prominent converts to Judaism, as contemporary examples. Raphael and Jennifer Patai argued in The Myth of the Jewish Race that an inflow of genes from neighboring populations, via conversion, intermarriage, and illicit sex, kept Jewish populations from developing distinct genetic features. [26]

It&#8217;s true that Jews as a whole are not a single genetically distinct group; however, some subgroups are&#8212;in particular, the Ashkenazim. Strong evidence exists in the prevalence of genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs and others, but there is much more information these days as a result of new technologies for studying DNA. Take a look: SNPs don&#8217;t lie. [27]

The plot shown on page 205 makes use of those alleles that are considerably more common in one group than in others to determine group membership. Ashkenazi Jews (represented by circles and squares, the cluster in the upper-right-hand corner) can easily be distinguished from the general European population (triangles). Irish, Scandinavians, Germans, and Brits occupy the upper left end of the archipelago, while Greeks and Italians are found at the lower left end. The Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct group; this is made especially clear by the cluster of dark squares, the group of Ashkenazi Jews with four Ashkenazi Jewish grandparents. For a very long time, Ashkenazi Jews (and most other Jewish groups as well) were endogamous, rarely marrying outside their faith or accepting converts. An endogamous group can remain genetically distinct, or become genetically different from neighboring peoples, if that social pattern persists. This is especially likely if some major fraction of the group&#8217;s ancestors came from somewhere else (in this case, the Middle East) or if the selective pressures they&#8217;ve experienced have been different from those present in neighboring peoples.

There is reason to believe that a fair fraction (&#8776; 40 percent) of Ashkenazi ancestry is European, which we will discuss later, but it seems that for the most part those genes were added to the mix a long time ago, possibly back in the days of the Roman Empire. That notion is inherently plausible because many of the Jews in Rome arrived as enslaved prisoners of war, captured in the Great Revolt of AD 65&#8211;73 or in Bar-Kochba&#8217;s revolt of AD 132&#8211;135. Many of those slaves eventually became freemen, and it is likely that they were predominantly male. Many must have married local European women. There should therefore be a significant southern European component in the maternal ancestry of Roman Jews and, later, Ashkenazi Jews.

Admixture has not kept the Ashkenazim from becoming genetically distinct. Even if a population starts out as a mixture of two or more peoples, as in this case, becoming endogamous (ending intermarriage) and staying so for a long time ensures that the population will become homogeneous. If the population&#8217;s ancestry is 60 percent Middle Eastern and 40 percent European, for example, a few dozen generations of endogamy will result in a population in which each individual&#8217;s ancestry is quite close to 60% Middle Eastern and 40% European. In other words, you eventually get a population that has a flavor all its own (...)

 

[Borachio]

"You are all illegal":


Link to video.

Spoiler :

But isn't the guy who says this also a descendant of "illegal immigrants" from Siberia?

Exactly! Who invited the Native Americans? It certainly wasn't all the fauna that went, coincidentally, extinct just after their arrival.

I can see the slogan "We're all illegal immigrants" as an impetus for unity.

I do, however, think he's right to highlight the hypocrisy of those protesting about "illegal immigrants"

 

[bhsup]

About as legitimate a point as Celtic folk insisting all those angles and Saxons being in the UK illegally, sure.

 

[Borachio]

Indeed. The Celts do have a point.

Yet, let us remember, the Anglo-Saxons were originally invited into England by the Welsh: in order to combat the Pictish threat in the north.

I think the Welsh came to regret their invitation. Or, if you want to be picky, the Britons. (Who may have included a few left-over Romans, who really had come uninvited.)

449: Vortigern invites Anglo-Saxons to come and help them against the Picts, who were raiding the east coast, and allows them to settle on "The eastern side of the island.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_conflict_in_Anglo-Saxon_Britain

 

[gangleri2001]

About as legitimate a point as Celtic folk insisting all those angles and Saxons being in the UK illegally, sure.

Yeah, right, because everyone knows that the Celts got into Great Britain and Ireland peacefully and even invited by the previous inhabitants.

 

[bhsup]

I would have been happy to use -that- as an example too, as it is just as awe-inspiring in its ability to make me think I should move to France and out of America, but I am admittedly ignorant about the ancient peoples of the Sceptred Isles and who was where first.