"Less Popular" Leader Elimination Thread

[AnonymousSpeed]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Nero (Rome) 1 - 3 = 0 (Easy first elimination for a truly awful leader)

This is fidelity.

Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 17 In hindsight maybe should've put someone else here for the list. I still don't personally like him as much as other options on the list, and I'll admit it's hard to argue that the negative affects of his reforms accelerated the rate of Byzantine decline compared to a situation without them.
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 22 This guy here is actually my favorite Mughal emperor. A lot of people criticize him for his religious intolerance, fundamentalism, and firing court musicians, but even though I disagree with his religion and conquests, I actually respect Aurangzeb's piety and prudence.
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah / Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 12
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Zaarin]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 21 (20 + 1) -- I think any Komnenos would be the ideal leader of Byzantium this time around: all were popular and successful, and they'd move Byzantium into the Middle Ages and further away from Greece and Rome.
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 21
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 12
Oliver Cromwell (England) 14 (17 - 3) -- I'll give Mandela a brief reprieve to downvote my least favorite person on this list. I can't say I'm a fan of Calvinist iconoclasts.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Kimiimaro]

Alexios I Komnenos should have 18 points, Aurangzeb 22. Scores corrected.

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 18+1=19 - But in reality, he should have 20 points at least. Someone has to correct it. Considering the situation Byzantium was at the start of his reign, he made truly impressive work in making Byzantium strong and stable again.
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 22
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 12-3=9 - Too recent, and to be honest, I was never very interested in seeing South Africa as a Civ. Zulu were always enough to represent this region.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 14
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Siptah]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 22 (21+1) Misjudged by many even today, he was a great Pharaoh with an even greater vision. That the world (and conservative Egypt) wasn't ready for him is the course of history. He would be an interesting leader in any case, if you like him or not.
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 22
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 17 (20-3) Josia would be a better candidate in my opinion, being almost the Messiah but failed. (and I'm against the civ anyway).
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 9
Oliver Cromwell (England) 14
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Morningcalm]

Josiah has less of a historical record than Hezekiah (who is well-attested both biblically and based on archaeological evidence, such as Assyrian records). Also, Josiah apparently died after disobeying what Necho said at God's command, so he hardly seems a paragon. If we are going for Biblical leaders there are better choices in my opinion.

Salome Alexandra is also an option if we wanted someone more historically well-attested.

 

[Siptah]

Josiah has less of a historical record than Hezekiah (who is well-attested both biblically and based on archaeological evidence, such as Assyrian records). Also, Josiah apparently died after disobeying what Necho said at God's command, so he hardly seems a paragon. If we are going for Biblical leaders there are better choices in my opinion.

Salome Alexandra is also an option if we wanted someone more historically well-attested.

The importance of Josiah's reign for the judaic religion is unmatched, so I stand by my vote and opinion, thank you.

 

[Guandao]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 22
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 22
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 17
Menawa (Creek) (20+1)=21 I understand his actions, he wanted to resist assimilation. His victim, William McIntosh is probably more suited for being a Civ leader though (I dislike McIntosh for his slave-owning, but that was commonly practiced in Southeastern Amerindian societies).
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) (9-3)=6 I prefer the Zulus to represent this area than a young country like South Africa.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 14
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Morningcalm]

The importance of Josiah's reign for the judaic religion is unmatched, so I stand by my vote and opinion, thank you.

Please elaborate on his importance to the Judaic religion.

 

[Siptah]

Please elaborate on his importance to the Judaic religion.

Should be easy to find out yourself with the internet and an abundance of books about the topics. I'm lazy. But the most important thing might be that he introduced monotheism according to the bible (and according to archeological evidence, it happened around that time as well).

 

[Morningcalm]

I would have thought it was Abraham (from Sumerian), Moses or someone even earlier who introduced monotheism as such in the Bible. I haven't found a solid source re: Josiah's historical contribution to monotheism but I'll keep looking.

 

[Siptah]

I would have thought it was Abraham (from Sumerian), Moses or someone even earlier who introduced monotheism as such in the Bible. I haven't found a solid source re: Josiah's historical contribution to monotheism but I'll keep looking.

not that I can verify the source, but google turned out this as first result and at a short glance over some words, it seems ok:
http://religiousstudiesblog.blogspot.ch/2010/12/el-yahweh-and-development-of-monotheism.html

 

[Morningcalm]

It cites its sources rather selectively but it's interesting. I'll look around to see if other literature reflects this idea of Josiah being a major contributor to the concept of monotheism.

 

[Zaarin]

His victim, William McIntosh is probably more suited for being a Civ leader though

I object to McIntosh for the same reason I object to the Cherokee: McIntosh sold out his people for his own benefit. I realize many Civ leaders are far from saints and many of them weren't even great leaders, but I think there's a definite line between a dubious leader and a traitor. That being said, I don't think his holding slaves really merits comment--not because slavery is okay but because in historical context it was a survival tactic: it kept the Native Americans higher up in the American racial hierarchy than African slaves, which if not a brave move was an expedient one--not that it saved the Five Civilized Tribes when push came to shove. Also virtually all Civ leaders have presided over civilizations who owned slaves, except Teddy (whose own racial views don't exactly bear close scrutiny), Catherine de Medici (depending on whether you view a serf as slave or free--personally, I'm inclined to maintain the difference), Barbarossa (see note on CdM), and Jadwiga (see note on CdM). I'm not familiar enough with slavery in Japan or modern India to comment on Hojo Tokimune or Gandhi, but all the others had slaves (though slavery was abolished during Victoria's reign).

 

[Guandao]

I object to McIntosh for the same reason I object to the Cherokee: McIntosh sold out his people for his own benefit. I realize many Civ leaders are far from saints and many of them weren't even great leaders, but I think there's a definite line between a dubious leader and a traitor. That being said, I don't think his holding slaves really merits comment--not because slavery is okay but because in historical context it was a survival tactic: it kept the Native Americans higher up in the American racial hierarchy than African slaves, which if not a brave move was an expedient one--not that it saved the Five Civilized Tribes when push came to shove. Also virtually all Civ leaders have presided over civilizations who owned slaves, except Teddy (whose own racial views don't exactly bear close scrutiny), Catherine de Medici (depending on whether you view a serf as slave or free--personally, I'm inclined to maintain the difference), Barbarossa (see note on CdM), and Jadwiga (see note on CdM). I'm not familiar enough with slavery in Japan or modern India to comment on Hojo Tokimune or Gandhi, but all the others had slaves (though slavery was abolished during Victoria's reign).

When you put it like that, McIntosh's slavery shouldn't matter much. I definitely agree with McIntosh being a sellout. Who would you pick as a leader for the Creek/Muscogee if they were to be made a Civ?

 

[Zaarin]

When you put it like that, McIntosh's slavery shouldn't matter much. I definitely agree with McIntosh being a sellout. Who would you pick as a leader for the Creek/Muscogee if they were to be made a Civ?

Menawa--who do you think proposed him for this list? Opothleyahola would be another fine option.

 

[Morningcalm]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 22 - 3 = 19 (Oversaw immense divisions in Egypt, produced a monotheistic cult that took up the majority of his time, used little of it to foreign affairs, and his influence left no lasting legacy. Only of interest due to his art, monotheism, and Egypt's overall hatred of him. He was a rather inept leader who did stupid things with city placement--you know AI who place cities in desert far away from civilization and water? This guy did that. The city in question, if I recall, was destroyed or abandoned. Add to this Akhenaten's lack of care on everything from the military to internal taxes and you get a portrait of a leader who went all in on monotheism and did little to actually govern his country wisely.)
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 22
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 17 + 1 = 18 (Strengthened Judah's monotheistic devotion and defied the Assyrian Empire of Sennacherib, successfully keeping them away from Jerusalem with a variety of defensive measures; and strengthened Judah as a worthy rival/ally to Egypt and Babylon; also a well-attested and respected leader both in the Bible and without)
Menawa (Creek) 21
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 6
Oliver Cromwell (England) 14
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Zaarin]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20 (19 + 1) -- I don't see by what metric Akhenaten could possibly be called "inept": he reformed a very reform-resistant culture--that it snapped back into place after his death is just a reminder of how potent his own personality was in holding it together, and how inept the boy-king Tutankhamun was. I also don't think the fact that the Heretic King underwent damnatio memorii need be given much weight; many Egyptologists regard Hatshepsut as one of Egypt's greatest pharaohs of either sex and she too underwent damnatio memorii. (Also, just to be technical, Atenism was monolatrous or henotheistic, not monotheistic.)
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 22
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 18
Menawa (Creek) 21
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 3 (6 - 3) -- Let me show you the door...
Oliver Cromwell (England) 14
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Phrozen]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 22 -3 = 19. Religious fanatic who caused rebellions all across the Mughal Empire. Expanded the empire but at such at such cost and destruction that the conquests actually brought very little in the end if not being a net loss for the empire.
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15 +1 =16. Not responsible for the Great Depression. Hoover did not follow Coolidge's policies and FDR double downed on Hoovers leading to a depression much longer than it needed to be.
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 18
Menawa (Creek) 21
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 3
Oliver Cromwell (England) 14
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Kimiimaro]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19+1=20 - Back in the 20 club, where he belongs.
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 19
Calvin Coolidge (America) 16
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 18
Menawa (Creek) 21
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 3-3=0 (ELIMINATED) - I'm afraid that South African Civ isn't what I want. Zulus were always enough to cover that region. Also, I think he is a bit too modern to be a leader.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 14
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Siptah]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 20
Atahualpa (Inca) 22 (21+1) As written before, I think of him as a great leader that just had great history against him. No shame to lose against that.
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 19
Calvin Coolidge (America) 16
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 18 (21-3) Popular now, but wasn't very popular with 'historians' and writes closer to his time.
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 18
Menawa (Creek) 21
Napoleon III (France) 22
Oliver Cromwell (England) 14
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21