"Less Popular" Leader Elimination Thread

[AnonymousSpeed]

Everyone likes a winner. In all our elimination threads, we debate which of a list of winners is more of a winner than everyone else.

Until today.

Inspired by our repeated debates about Zenobia's merits as a leader in civilization and with the invaluable help of our dear friend Zaarin, I have constructed a list of 18 leaders who's level of winning is more debatable. Whether due to extreme character flaws, an administration of mixed quality, or their character being mutated by history, these are leaders who's worthiness depends on who you ask.

It is my hope that this elimination game will convince some people to reevaluate their opinions on some of these leaders, and perhaps how we look at historical figures in general.

The rules are simple.

1. Once a day, you make a post with your vote. I don't want to be exceptionally strict about having a 24 hour wait or anything, but give it some time between votes.
2. Each civilization begins with 20 points. Each time you vote, you subtract 3 points from one leader and add 1 point for another leader. Once a leader's point total is reduced to 0, they are eliminated.
3. More than ever, because of the nature of this game, provide a reason for why you voted the way you did when you do so. Even if you've already made your points, try to address some other people's complaints or squeeze out something new to say about your choices.
4. Also due to the nature of this thread, please remain respectful when making your votes. Yes, I know it seems like a silly request, but people can get quite impassioned about their opinions on history, even me, so let's not let that get out of hand.
5. Please refrain from making posts when not voting.

Here is the initial list:

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 20
Atahualpa (Inca) 20
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 20
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah / Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 20
Nero (Rome) 20
Oliver Cromwell (England) 20
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 20
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 20
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 20
Yongle Emperor (China) 20

You don't have to keep the name of the civilization they would represent in parenthesis if you don't want to.
With that said,

Begin.

Rankings:

Spoiler :

18. Nero ("This is fidelity!")
17. Nelson Mandela ("The greatest glory in living lies not in never failing, but in rising every time we fall.")
16. Tin Hinan (ERR404 QUOTE NOT FOUND)
15. Oliver Cromwell ("It is not my design to drink or to sleep, but my design is to make what haste I can to be gone.")
14. Akhenaten ("Honor is the inner garment of the soul; the first thing put on by it with the flesh, and the last thing it layeth down at its separation from such.")
13. Edward the Confessor (Pleasant, but always dignified, he walked with eyes downcast, most graciously affable to one and all. If some cause aroused his temper, he seemed as terrible as a lion, but he never revealed his anger by railing.)

 

[Siptah]

Hezekiah never led Israel, but was king of Judah.

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnemos (Byzantium) 20
Atahualpa (Inca) 21 (20+1) despite being captured and defeated, I think there is enough pointing towards Atahualpa being a top 4 choice for the Incas. He seems to have been a great leader that was very unlucky to live in the wrong times where his people had to deal with a superior attacker, royal family rivalries and deadly illnesses.
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 20
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 20
Nero (Rome) 17 (20-3) I don't think there is too much good to say about him. I'm no expert on this, however. Despite reading a lot about Rome many years back, I can't remember reading many positive things about politics, character etc. of Nero. I do remember that a lot of the 'bad' things assigned to him are exaggerated.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 20
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 20
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 20
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 20
Yongle Emperor (China) 20

 

[Kimiimaro]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnemos (Byzantium) 20+1=21 - The return of Byzantium would be actually quite nice, and this man stopped the decline of Byzantium, started the recovery of army, finances and territories and eventually made the Byzantine Empire strong and stable again.
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 20
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 20
Nero (Rome) 17-3=14 - Just no. There are lots of much better Roman leaders (both Consuls and Emperors) to choose from, than to pick this man. This man just wasn't a good leader. Also, Rome is one of the Civs that are in a small need of a second leader.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 20
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 20
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 20
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 20
Yongle Emperor (China) 20

 

[Guandao]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnemos (Byzantium) 21
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 20
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 20
Nero (Rome) 14
Oliver Cromwell (England) 20
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (20+1)=21 I think he is worthy of being in the game. His people dominated coastal Virginia. The Jamestown colonists had to rely on them to survive.
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) (20-3)=17 We know little about her, except for her tomb, not even her real name.
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 20
Yongle Emperor (China) 20

 

[Zaarin]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnemos (Byzantium) 21
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 20
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 20
Nero (Rome) 14
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17 (20 - 3) -- No thanks to Calvinist iconoclastic tyrants.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22 (21 + 1) -- Talk about "big personality": the man held together a confederacy of over forty tribes through sheer force of charisma, and even his European guests, many of whom had attended the court of James I or that of his predecessor Elizabeth I, described him as possessing a majesty the equal of any European monarch.
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 17
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 20
Yongle Emperor (China) 20

 

[Phrozen]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnemos (Byzantium) 21
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 20+1 = 21. Competent president during the Roaring 20s who lowered the federal debt by a quarter during his two terms. Pretty much was hands off non-interventionist which historians always discount. Hoover did not continue his policies. He was also the last federalist president.
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 20
Nero (Rome) 14-3 =11. Yes, his enemies 'won' and wrote the histories about him but where there is smoke then there is more than likely fire.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 17
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 20
Yongle Emperor (China) 20

 

[Kimiimaro]

Just noticed that there was a typo in Alexios' name. It's Komnenos, not Komnemos. Typo fixed.

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 21
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 21
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 20
Nero (Rome) 11-3=8 - A bad choice to represent Rome.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 17
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 20
Yongle Emperor (China) 20+1=21 - I think he is a nice choice to represent China. At least he's a better choice than Qin Shi Huang. And Yongle Encyclopedia would make a nice leader bonus.

 

[Guandao]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 21
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 21
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) (20-3)=17 Too recent for my liking, I rather have the Zulus instead of South Africa.
Nero (Rome) 8
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 17
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) (20+1)=21 He failed, but he's the most famous Gallic leader. We know more about him than either Brennus.
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 20
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 18 Given who I upvote later, I can't really condemn Alexios for burning his theological opponents, at least not for these purpose. Despite bettering the status of the Byzantine empire, I tend not to like usurpers, though it's also possible I just strongly dislike his conniving mother.
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 21
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Israel) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 17
Nero (Rome) 9 Wow, leave it to the creationist to stick up for Nero, will you? Nero certainly has his flaws, even taking into account that most of them are exaggerated, but he'd certainly be an interesting leader. The lower classes were fond of him, and when Rome burned down he took impressive personal care to help the situation. It's most likely that he lost because he was unpopular with the upper classes, and the things he did which upset them would be seen as more altruistic today. Not to mention that such an extravagant artist and performer, who had many games and theatres funded, would provide an excellent way to do some things weird with Rome and focus on culture.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 17
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Zaarin]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21 (20 + 1) -- Easily one of the biggest personalities in history and one of Egypt's greatest pharaohs. His reforms may not have outlived him by more than a few years, but the fact that he was able to completely transform such an arch-conservative society speaks favorably of his strength of will and charisma.
Alexander II (Russia) 20
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 18
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 21
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 14 (17 - 3) -- He was a Communist and a terrorist. Pass.
Nero (Rome) 9
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 17
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Phrozen]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 20 +1 =21. Was actually a very good leader slowly liberalizing Russia's government and completely reformed the military after the Crimean War. He was then assassinated by communists and like most everything communists touch Russia's government only got worse from there on. First reactionary under the next few Czars then increasingly totalitarian under the Soviets.
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 18
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 21
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 14 -3 = 11. Too recent.
Nero (Rome) 9
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 17
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Kimiimaro]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 18+1=19 - He stopped the decline of Byzantium and eventually made it great and stable again.
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 20
Calvin Coolidge (America) 21
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 11
Nero (Rome) 9-3=6 - I'm not a fan of him.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 17
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Guandao]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) (20+1)=21 I was gonna downvote him for being religiously intolerant, but it seems like that was exaggerated. He expanded the Mughal Empire to its greatest extent.
Calvin Coolidge (America) 21
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 11
Nero (Rome) 6
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) (17-3)=14 Pretty much known archaeologically, Tin Hinan isn't her actual name. I rather have Dihya lead the Berbers.
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Manifold]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 21
Calvin Coolidge (America) 18 (21-3) with full steam in the global economic crisis nice suggestion.
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 20
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 11

Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 14 (17 - 3) -- He was a Communist and a terrorist. Pass.

You are the grand master of fake in this forum no question
Nero (Rome) 7 (6+1) He is iconic and he fits perfect to this game with all this cartoon characters in it.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22 (she is spelled Pocahontas or?)
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 14
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Zaarin]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 21
Calvin Coolidge (America) 18.
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 21 (20 + 1) -- His foreign policy was defined by one failure after another, but his domestic policies saw France's cities turned from dirty Medieval firehazards to modern metropolises, as well as promoting education for women, modernizing agriculture, etc.
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 11
Nero (Rome) 4 (7 - 3) -- What an artist we shall lose in him.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 14
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Kimiimaro]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 19+1=20 - A great choice to represent Byzantium in game.
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 21
Calvin Coolidge (America) 18
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 20
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 21
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 11
Nero (Rome) 4-3=1 - There are many better choices to represent Rome compared to him.
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 14
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Guandao]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 20
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 21
Calvin Coolidge (America) 18
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) (20+1)=21 He seems to have an unfair reputation. Not my first choice for a Hungarian leader, but he's decent.
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 21
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 11
Nero (Rome) 1
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) (14-3)=11 Only known archeologically. Dihya is a better choice for a female Berber leader.
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Siptah]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 20
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 21
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15 (18-3) Too close to Teddy in history
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 22 (21+1) Less popular? He's far less controversial than Napoleon I and probably more popular (at least in France) as well.
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 11
Nero (Rome) 1
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21

 

[Zaarin]

Napoleon III (France) 22 (21+1) Less popular? He's far less controversial than Napoleon I and probably more popular (at least in France) as well.

I'm a big fan of his, but I think his reputation suffers from his abysmal foreign policy (particularly the Crimean War and the hilariously doleful Franco-Prussian War in which Bismarck more or less literally taunted France into war), despite his incredible success on the home front (which seems rather unfair--Bismarck's foreign policy was nothing short of brilliant, but in domestic affairs his record was about as baleful as Napoleon III's foreign policy, yet no one finds fault with him).

 

[Morningcalm]

Akhenaten (Egypt) 21
Alexander II (Russia) 21
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 20
Atahualpa (Inca) 21
Aurangzeb (India / Mughal) 21
Calvin Coolidge (America) 15
Coloman the Learned (Hungary) 21
Edward the Confessor (England) 20
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Menawa (Creek) 20
Napoleon III (France) 22
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) 11 + 1 = 12 (A reformed revolutionary who led to the dismantling of apartheid and ended up on the high end of Civilization end game scoring)
Nero (Rome) 1 - 3 = 0 (Easy first elimination for a truly awful leader)
Oliver Cromwell (England) 17
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 22
Tin Hinan (Berbers / Tuaregs) 11
Vercingetorix (Celts / Gauls) 21
Yongle Emperor (China) 21