Lets discuss: Homophobia

[useless]

The Bible still promotes homosexuality (and thus also homosexuals) as being wrong and deviant, and even calls for their death. Why do you defend this? Homosexuals have EVERY RIGHT to call out those that would chasitise them, be they religious or not, be it a religious based or legal based form of bigotry.

Homosexuals have been abused, punished, killed, mistreated and generally crapped upon throughout their entire existence, why should they not fight back?

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

that's even worse than what your collegues are doing.
not for him, but for what it makes you.

I don't see why ? If you are going to sum me up in such a poor light please explain why ?

Is it ok to tell racist jokes or jokes about people with disabilities ? I think it is but the operative word is tact . Ill just bite me tongue if someone in the conversation is of the race in question or is disabled .

I genuinely don't see why you find me so odious by NOT putting &$£€% on the guy when , solely due to his meek nature , colleagues are prepared to straight out make pretty crass jokes to his face . The only reason I can see is that you misunderstood me and think I make personal disparaging remarks about him behind his back . I meant I'm comfortable making a gay joke as long as present company wouldn't be offended . I stress I simply mean being tactful.

 

[holy king]

josh, if you dont understand why people of whom you call a big junk of their lives "sinful", then declare it's no problem since they can get all the "charity" they want, afterall you dont hate them as persons, just their acts (which are harmful to absolutely nobody) because some religious text those people may not even believe in says so, think you are a major asshat, i really cant help you.

 

[useless]

I don't see why ? If you are going to sum me up in such a poor light please explain why ?

Is it ok to tell racist jokes or jokes about people with disabilities ? I think it is but the operative word is tact . Ill just bite me tongue if someone in the conversation is of the race in question or is disabled .

I genuinely don't see why you find me so odious by NOT putting &$£€% on the guy when , solely due to his meek nature , colleagues are prepared to straight out make pretty crass jokes to his face . The only reason I can see is that you misunderstood me and think I make personal disparaging remarks about him behind his back . I meant I'm comfortable making a gay joke as long as present company wouldn't be offended . I stress I simply mean being tactful.

No, it is NOT acceptable to make racist, homophobic or disabled jokes, Jesus Christ.

 

[Jehoshua]

Sacred scripture proscribes homosexual acts as sinful and rightfully as deviant and contrary to the natural law which is expressed biologically in the duality between male and female. The homosexual inclination on the other hand is intrinsically disordered but it is not of itself sinful because simply having the desire itself to sin is not actually commiting the sin.

The fact that the sin itself is fundamentally wrong remains. Thus from a christian perspective the society has a duty to ensure the natural law remains upheld within the judicial structure and within the administration of legitimate state authority(thus the opposition to redefining marriage to include homosexual unions) . Nowhere can sin be approved by a christian. However once again the human dignity of the sinner must be respected in a charitable opposition to his grave error.

This is shown in particular through the new covenant of Christ which fulfils the old covenant which applied solely to the people of israel and expands this completed and perfected covenant to all nations. Thus why we eat pork and refrain from stoning people convicted of homosexual acts.

As to Holy_king, I perfectly understand how a practicing homosexual would think I am an "asshat" as you say. After all I am saying they are wrong and anyone when confronted in such a manner makes a response to that. But disagreement does not require bigotry, I can say you are wrong, tell you that you are incorrect and try and convince you of the error of homosexual acts based on the principle of natural law (not neccesarily even requiring sacred scripture), and still respect your human dignity and perhaps be friends with you. I myself actually have atheist homosexual associates perhaps in the same manner as individuals on this forum, and incidentally they do not think I am a bigot for disagreeing with them because I approach them with christian charity in the understanding that is the sin that is condemned, not the sinner.

 

[holy king]

I don't see why ? If you are going to sum me up in such a poor light please explain why ?

Is it ok to tell racist jokes or jokes about people with disabilities ? I think it is but the operative word is tact . Ill just bite me tongue if someone in the conversation is of the race in question or is disabled .

I genuinely don't see why you find me so odious by NOT putting &$£€% on the guy when , solely due to his meek nature , colleagues are prepared to straight out make pretty crass jokes to his face . The only reason I can see is that you misunderstood me and think I make personal disparaging remarks about him behind his back . I meant I'm comfortable making a gay joke as long as present company wouldn't be offended . I stress I simply mean being tactful.

yeah, what you do is be a homophobe but not even have the courage to say it in a gay man's face. instead you sneak around and let it all out when nobody who could call you out on it is there.

i get that that's considered "tactful" in certain petty-bourgeois circles, but to me it's simply cowardice.

 

[holy king]

Sacred scripture proscribes homosexual acts as sinful and rightfully as deviant and contrary to the natural law which is expressed biologically in the duality between male and female. The homosexual inclination on the other hand is intrinsically disordered but it is not of itself sinful because simply having the desire itself to sin is not actually commiting the sin.

The fact that the sin itself is fundamentally wrong remains. Thus from a christian perspective the society has a duty to ensure the natural law remains upheld within the judicial structure and within the administration of legitimate state authority(thus the opposition to redefining marriage to include homosexual unions) . Nowhere can sin be approved by a christian. However once again the human dignity of the sinner must be respected in a charitable opposition to his grave error.

This is shown in particular through the new covenant of Christ which fulfils the old covenant which applied solely to the people of israel and expands this completed and perfected covenant to all nations. Thus why we eat pork and refrain from stoning people convicted of homosexual acts.

i dont know how much contact you get with the outside world, so, do you have any idea what this sounds like for people not part of your religious institution?

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

No, it is NOT acceptable to make racist, homophobic or disabled jokes, Jesus Christ.

Why ? My duty as a member of society is to show everyone respect until they give me reason not to .

How am I disrespecting someone if my dealings with them are honest , polite and accepting of how they choose to live their lives .

I honestly don't understand how a JOKE made in private is unacceptable

 

[Jehoshua]

i dont know how much contact you get with the outside world, so, do you have any idea what this sounds like for people not part of your religious institution?

I live in a secular society so its not like im cloistered in a monastery. And I would hazard a guess it sounds offensive precisely because it opposes their own perception of their acts and their pre-established world view.

 

[useless]

Why ? My duty as a member of society is to show everyone respect until they give me reason not to .

How am I disrespecting someone if my dealings with them are honest , polite and accepting of how they choose to live their lives .

I honestly don't understand how a JOKE made in private is unacceptable

You're propogating bigoted views, and you're so wrapped up in your straight, cis-gendered priviledge that you cannot even begin to understand how wrong it looks...

 

[holy king]

I live in a secular society so its not like im cloistered in a monastery. And I would hazard a guess it sounds offensive precisely because it opposes their own perception of their acts and their pre-established world view.

you talk about a closed system of belief billions of people arent even familiar with as if it were some kind of universal truth.
i cant find an adjective for that that wouldnt get me infracted, so please do the thinking.


I'd be also very interested if you empathically understand this:

josh, if you dont understand why people of whom you call a big junk of their lives "sinful", then declare it's no problem since they can get all the "charity" they want, afterall you dont hate them as persons, just their acts (which are harmful to absolutely nobody) because some religious text those people may not even believe in says so, think you are a major asshat, i really cant help you.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

yeah, what you do is be a homophobe but not even have the courage to say it in a gay man's face. instead you sneak around and let it all out when nobody who could call you out on it is there.

i get that that's considered "tactful" in certain petty-bourgeois circles, but to me it's simply cowardice.

And there is the crux of how we differ . I am NOT homophobic , I am NOT racist , I do NOT dislike people with disabilities .

I do however see the absurdity of humanity , including myself , on a daily basis . A tried and true way that people have chosen to deal with these observations are humor . It does not follow that because one makes a joke about homosexuality that one has a problem with homosexuality . That isn't fair .

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Want me to be brutally honest? Yes.

Would it also be bigotry to believe or teach out that the acts of adultery or watching pornography are sins? Just trying to understand if morality from religious texts and teachings have any room to exist from your perspective. Should they be condemned and their followers stigmatized out of existence altogether?

 

[useless]

Would it also be bigotry to believe or teach out that the acts of adultery or watching pornography are sins? Just trying to understand if morality from religious texts and teachings have any room to exist from your perspective. Should they be condemned and their followers stigmatized out of existence altogether?

No, because they are not targetting a specific group or minority. I do not draw my morality from religious texts or teachings.

Bigotry that comes from religion should be stigmatised, not matter how essential it is to that particular religion and any less is either endorsing such bigotry, or being complicit.

 

[RedRalph]

RedRalph: Saying the F-word, or "that's so gay" in an negative context is pretty widespread, even by those that profess to be allies of the LGBT movement...

Yes, that's how it is. It's not right, but that is the situation. However, I'm optimistic. I don't think we can ever eliminate every trace of any prejudice, but I think in the last 20 years homophobia has been really blunted as a serious force for hate (generally speaking and in the western world).

You cannot stop schoolboys from saying things like "urrgggh, get off me you ", you cannot stop women from saying things like "oh my god he's so gay" etc, and I don't think you should try, it's counter-productive. Eventually it will become a prejudice like national stereotypes, i.e. wrong but pretty harmless in reality.

I think ANY joke is fair game as long as someone who might not be offended by it is present . I think the gay guy in question in my previous post though has to put up with a few too many "light hearted" jokes and is simply too nice a guy to openly bite back

No one can stop you doing that but people can and will form opinions about you on that basis, and they don't tend to be favourable. The tide is turning against these types of remarks and you will be seen in an increasingly negative light for telling them.

 

[Jehoshua]

you talk about a closed system of belief billions of people arent even familiar with as if it were some kind of universal truth.
i kcant find an adjective for that that wouldnt get me infracted, so please do the thinking.

Point is I believe indeed that the Catholic Church (which I am a member) contains the fullness of the truth and is thus the One True Faith, with any other belief system only containing truth insofar as it concurs with what the Church teaches. Anything else to a catholic (or indeed orthodox christian) perspective is erroneous.

If you believe in one God there can thus be only one truth or you are declaring that God is a liar and thus not God. Relativistic belief that there are different mutually equal 'truths' is anathema and incompatible with Christianity. Thus I really couldn't care less if you disagree with me, I have my opinion and belief and It is thus my duty to ensure that I enact it in every manner of my life and if I thus oppose your worldview because it is incompatible with the objective Truth then I will go on right ahead doing that.

However in the context of the morality of homosexual acts I need only resort to the natural law and the biological complimentarity and duality of the sexes to argue that homosexual acts are immoral and contrary to the function of the sexual act.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

You're propogating bigoted views, and you're so wrapped up in your straight, cis-gendered priviledge that you cannot even begin to understand how wrong it looks...

I respectfully asked you to explain to me why it looks so wrong , but it seems that your willingness to make such sweeping statements about my character based on little more than that I think it's ok to take the piss out of anything and everything makes this impossible .

The whole point of humor is that you get to say stuff without reasonable observers assuming you ARE propagating a view

 

[useless]

Yes, that's how it is. It's not right, but that is the situation. However, I'm optimistic. I don't think we can ever eliminate every trace of any prejudice, but I think in the last 20 years homophobia has been really blunted as a serious force for hate (generally speaking and in the western world).

You cannot stop schoolboys from saying things like "urrgggh, get off me you ", you cannot stop women from saying things like "oh my god he's so gay" etc, and I don't think you should try, it's counter-productive. Eventually it will become a prejudice like national stereotypes, i.e. wrong but pretty harmless in reality.

I agree, but i personally believe we should still try anyway. It's incredibly hurtful, nasty and spiteful when people associate homosexuality with something inherently wrong, sinful or bad. It dehumanises us, it makes us feel like lesser people, 2nd class citizens.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

I am eagerly waiting the eventual demise of the baby-boomers, with their racist, homophobic and generally bigoted rhetoric.

I'm guessing you don't see the irony in posting this in a thread where you are decrying others for their bigoted views ?

 

[useless]

I'm guessing you don't see the irony in posting this in a thread where you are decrying others for their bigoted views ?

Yeah, the Baby Boomer's have been systematically discriminated against; they can't marry, they accused of being riddled with disease, they're attacked and even killed due to anti-boomer hate crimes, they're insulted, they're disowned by their family, their religion hates them etc.