Let's Discuss Poland

[Catharsis]

Just telling that I will be gone for a while. I'm going to play Civ. I'm playing Korea, and guess what, it's not the real Korea, it is only a concept in a game and I will continue my everending war with the Vikings and again, it's not the real Vikings (pretty sure of that, since I don't live in a mythic world), it is only a concept in a game to.

PS
And yes, I will kick his ass too.

EXACTLY. Pixels on a screen.

 

[bombel1979]

thx Dennis I will remember forever

but to calm the topic... the thing is that I don't argue that Poland should be in or out. Im only dissapointed that somany people are judging without hesitation and without knowlegde of the facts... thats my point.

 

[Spearthrower]

no, spearthrower, I didn't say that, I only want to underline the fact that some people are deliberating about topics that they hve no knowlegde... about topics they even didn't hearabout, but THEY HAVE TO SAY SOMETHIG... so they are saying rubbish, nonsense...

this topic was set up by the moderator to discuss "Polish thing" but most of the participents of the disscussion have no or little knowlegde about Poland. So what they are talking about?

PS
great comparisson between a French colony which gained independance foury something years ago and a country with a +1000 year history
but at least I know where Burkina Fasso is!
sorry, forgot the capital...

For the sake of the argument Bombel.... doesn't the fact that all these people you claim to not know anything about Poland actually give you a perfectly good reason why Poland isn't in the game.

Now, please understand that I have actually read every last scrap of information I can find on Poland over the years (interest from a number of perspectives), so I am far from ignorant on the subject. Yet, you are expecting people to ratify your country as worthy of inclusion when you know full well that a) Poland's "golden years" were predominantly defensive and that Poland suffered an inordinate number of invasions and was reduced to less than a vassal state on 2 occasions. Even being completely subsumed into invading empires. That "1000 years of history" is a little bit of warping the truth, if you were pushed to admit it, wouldn't you agree?

As for Burkina Faso, I expect you had to quickly check facts, just like I did... the point was that some countries to you are not studied for a number of reasons.... that is exactly the same scenario with Poland and the countries you listed.

 

[hoopsnerd]

Oh I didnt mean it as a justification, but as an explanation!

Too often people mistake "explanations" for "excuses". Just because somebody attempts to explain why something might have happened in the past, doesn't mean that they are justifying said event. If I said "Hitler exterminated Jews during WW2 because of X, Y, and Z" that in no way implies that I am excusing the genocide, it is mere explanation.

 

[TheLastOne36]

The only reason there's so much discussion about Poland is that some Poles feel like they need representation in a computer game to validate their country and nationalism. I really don't understand it; if the US wasn't in the game I wouldn't care at all, but I guess some Poles are just a little less secure in their nation's standing internationally.

I don't really care if it's Poland, Bulgaria, or Hungary, some kind of EE representation other then russia is all that i want. (russia covers us very badly)

Now you tell me if there weren't going to be 234679 threads about it, if America was not in the game?
I thought Americans were mostly known for their ultra-nationalism.
Of course, there is exceptions, such as you.

Going with my above statement, what if Canada was in and USA was not? I'm Polish and i think it's good enough if Hungary get's in! But would the americans be be happy with canadian representation! Of course not!!! That just proves that the americans are the most nationalistic of them all!

 

[hoopsnerd]

Oops.......

 

[bombel1979]

Spearthrower,

great, Im really pleased that you know more than something about Poland (meaning much , that is really great, as Im not agruing that Poland should be in, but the discussion in this forum was factless, just based on emotions... Partly I agree that in our history Poland was much on the defense (we did have bad luck) but also Polish expansion was much more in the Wild Wild West (but in Poland it was Wild Wild East not that spectacular as English or French... Poland had "colonies", but just outside the borders

 

[RedRalph]

Too often people mistake "explanations" for "excuses". Just because somebody attempts to explain why something might have happened in the past, doesn't mean that they are justifying said event. If I said "Hitler exterminated Jews during WW2 because of X, Y, and Z" that in no way implies that I am excusing the genocide, it is mere explanation.

Exactly. In fact, its much more dangerous not to look into the reasons someone commits an evil act or acts. Exploring reasons for behaviour dosent justify them

 

[bombel1979]

Spearthrower,

from those 1000 you can deduct circa 250 years without sovereingity (XII/XIII and 123 years in XVIII-XX), but in my oppinion those years weren't lost... but thats only my opinion.
But when do you start calculating English history? after Norman invasion? I bet much earlier, but still England is occupated, in a some way
History is not so simply as maths is, where you can be sure wheather y=ax + b

 

[TheLastOne36]

Sweden herself (not all slavic peoples as one)

Umm Swedes are germanic...

was a world power,

At the time of Gustavus yes.

an empire

Since the 12th century sweden has been an empire. And technically still is today.

or a major economical factor on the planet.

It is now...

How about a colonial power? Ever? No?

Yap it has. But it was just as bad as Poland's Courland disaster.

Don't site 2 or three measly colonies, give me large numbers of powerful colonies.

There were alot of Swedish colonies. Mostly in teh carribean and the Pacific.

How about Poland. Any? Come on, name one... still can't do it?

You mean Poland as a colonial empire? well we did have that island of Tobago... Untill the damned dutch took it..

is civ the polish national past time?

is civ for polish what starcraft is for koreans?

Lol no, It's the national Pass time for Fireaxians and Civ Fanatics!

"Poland, pooland, porkypie land... whatever" LOL

Fudge of. (trying not to swear).

No Poland!!

No sweden either.

more on topic, i think one of the main factors that go into choosing civs is historical impact and the 'cool' factor, you have to remember this is a game they are trying to market, they want to pull in the most people they possibly can with the fewest amount of civs.

So slavic europe which is more populous then western europe, Polands big chunk 40 k pop and our winged hussar isn't good enough for you?

i think there are a lot of civs they would prob add before they put in poland just because a large part of there market i would wager don't know much about it and there are still other civs that would draw more customers.

Isn't the point of civ to educate you or something?

i think there are a lot of civs they would prob add before they put in poland just because a large part of there market i would wager don't know much about it and there are still other civs that would draw more customers.

Ehh always get them mixed up....

No, this is wrong, and more offensive than anything else in this thread because it is sincere. There is no such thing as "races" as far as humans are concerned. Asian/Caucasian/African/Inuit are not races, there is only one race: the human race. The whole concept of a sub-group of "race" has had no place in the scientific community for decades, and remains out despite the further exploration of the human genome. To quote science magazine: "Allelic frequencies vary between any selected human groups--to assume that those variations reflect 'racial categories' is unwarranted." "Race" as mentioned above is nothing but a social construct, and has no place in an unbiased discussion.

Then we go with the definition of "tribe" Not the tribe your thinking of, but this tribe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(biology)

Nothing personal, but we SHOULDN'T base the inclusion in the present only.

Which makes poland such a great option!

we're supposed to be discussing Poland...


threads NOT on Poland turn into threads on Poland...

threads ON Poland turn into threads NOT on POland...

is this a new CFC law of nature that i must write up???

I told you methos....

That was bad.
I dont know,if anyone here has meet any pole personally.But i can say,they are not bad people.I found it not funny anymore.I will not involve in this again.

Really? I personally found it funny...

TheLastOne36. i know him well. hes not a bad person.

WTH? I never even met you!

What exactly is this thread about anyway? Discussing Poland the country, or discussing Poland's right to be included in the game?

It just says "discuss poland" so i guess both.

I suspect that if Firaxis were not so concerned with ticking every demographic box, Poland would get in.

Well Poland is the only Major (in terms of pop) nationality in the world unrepresented. (yes vietnam got it's SE representation, Poland still doesn't have it's EE rep, or a proper one anyway)

Poles to hate Russians

I think it's more general "Eastern europeans hate russians"

I 'm glad ot have finally strted a long thread! after almost 600 post.... theres 180,000 Poles here in Ireland, everytime I see one (I can spot them cause of the dirty looks they give me for wearing a red army badge ;-) I keep wanting to ask them "If there was a computer game where you play as a nation, trying and conquer the world, build fantastic world wonders, which one would you favour?" they might think I wasnt the full shilling

How much do Polish people kids learn about Burkina Faso?

Yes it was a french or dutch colony. (forgotwhich one) In africa, and atleast i can point it out on the map despite it being a small and insignificint country.

Look, pall, I've known the capital of Poland since grade school... even tho it has no bearing on much until learning of WWII (high school).

What's the largest city and most populous city in poland?

 

[Jan Sobieski]

Racial discrimination contradicts the 1776 United States Declaration of Independence, the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen issued during the French Revolution and the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed after World War II, which all postulate equality between all human beings.

In 1950, UNESCO suggested in The Race Question —a statement signed by 21 scholars such as Ashley Montagu, Claude Lévi-Strauss, Gunnar Myrdal, Julian Huxley, etc. — to "drop the term race altogether and instead speak of ethnic groups". The statement condemned scientific racism theories which had played a role in the Holocaust. It aimed both at debunking scientific racist theories, by popularizing modern knowledge concerning "the race question," and morally condemned racism as contrary to the philosophy of the Enlightenment and its assumption of equal rights for all. Along with Myrdal's An American Dilemma: The Negro Problem and Modern Democracy (1944), The Race Question influenced the 1954 U.S. Supreme Court desegregation decision in "Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka".[22]

The United Nations uses the definition of racial discrimination laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, adopted in 1966:

...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.(Part 1 of Article 1 of the U.N. International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)[23]

In 2000, the European Union explicitly banned racism along with many other forms of social discrimination:

Article 21 of the charter prohibits discrimination on any ground such as race, color, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, disability, age or sexual orientation and also discrimination on the grounds of nationality.[24]

 

[hoopsnerd]

But those damn ignorants dont know it. And those ignorants are jugding wheather history of a country is enough emportatnt to put it to civ or not!!!

Clearly he's capable of judging WHEATHER or not we are ignorant. Also, could you tell me what you mean by "emportatnt?"

 

[RedRalph]

I think it's more general "Eastern europeans hate russians"

Nope. I know Czechs and Slovaks and they dont hate Russians. Belarus dosent seem to have any grudge. I think your average Serbian probably has a very positive view of Russia.

 

[Spearthrower]

Racial discrimination contradicts the 1776 United States Declaration of Independence, the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen issued during the French Revolution and the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed after World War II, which all postulate equality between all human beings.

In 1950, UNESCO suggested in The Race Question —a statement signed by 21 scholars such as Ashley Montagu, Claude Lévi-Strauss, Gunnar Myrdal, Julian Huxley, etc. — to "drop the term race altogether and instead speak of ethnic groups". The statement condemned scientific racism theories which had played a role in the Holocaust. It aimed both at debunking scientific racist theories, by popularizing modern knowledge concerning "the race question," and morally condemned racism as contrary to the philosophy of the Enlightenment and its assumption of equal rights for all. Along with Myrdal's An American Dilemma: The Negro Problem and Modern Democracy (1944), The Race Question influenced the 1954 U.S. Supreme Court desegregation decision in "Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka".[22]

The United Nations uses the definition of racial discrimination laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, adopted in 1966:

...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.(Part 1 of Article 1 of the U.N. International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)[23]

In 2000, the European Union explicitly banned racism along with many other forms of social discrimination:

Article 21 of the charter prohibits discrimination on any ground such as race, color, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, disability, age or sexual orientation and also discrimination on the grounds of nationality.[24]

Jan - "Polish" is not a race.

Furthermore, quoting entire chapters off wikipedia is unnecessary.... if you can't type it yourself, then perhaps your reading of it is not so good either.

 

[hoopsnerd]

Jan - "Polish" is not a race.

Why not? Race is merely a social construct anyways... Since it's just a made-up thing to begin with, why can't anything be a "race?"

 

[Spearthrower]

Why not? Race is merely a social construct anyways... Since it's just a made-up thing to begin with, why can't anything be a "race?"

If you are talking about the social construct, then fair enough - anything can be a race... I can claim that I am sufficiently different to be deemed a race.

From an anthopological perspective, race only works where you can assert a taxonomic variation between people. Phylogenetics from DNA or protein samples. Differing groups have morphological variances in their biology..... there are 7 distinct families, 18 groups and endless subgroups (if I remember my facts correctly) that can be traced back into the ancient past. Obviously, there is a lot of "cross-breeding" and the distinctions are blurred more every year.

This is the best picture of it I can be bothered to find at the moment - it's nearly bed time and my brain is slowing down!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Neighbor-joining_Tree.svg

EDIT: Actually, looking at this picture it is terrible... sorry I should have paid more attention... but at least it gives you the general idea of how it works - the linking lines between the distinct groups appears to be geographical rather than phylogenetic! That's pretty silly really.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Noone even looked at my post yet?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5894270&postcount=345

I thought it was quite good!

 

[hoopsnerd]

If you are talking about the social construct, then fair enough - anything can be a race... I can claim that I am sufficiently different to be deemed a race.

Spearthrower always hits it right on the head, doesn't he? Yes, my point was that there are a significant amount of genetic differences between individual humans whether or not they are of the same "race."

 

[hoopsnerd]

Noone even looked at my post yet?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5894270&postcount=345

I thought it was quite good!

Your post is ********. It's based solely on speculation and generalization, something which you'll condemn others for basing their posts on. You are nothing more than a hypocrite.

Moderator Action: Warned - Flaming!
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Spearthrower]

Spearthrower always hits it right on the head, doesn't he? Yes, my point was that there are a significant amount of genetic differences between individual humans whether or not they are of the same "race."

I aim to please!

Thanks!