Let's play Deity: Hatshepsut

[AbsoluteZero]

part 6

I suspect Kossin is a bit lucky with Mansa's teching, as you will see in my game he goes for education at 225 AD, likely followed by lib. I don't see the point of even trying if lib goes that soon. I've seen Mansa get lib at 100 AD for crying out loud

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turn 116

Spy's spys and more spys.

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turn 117

I whip em, build em, chop em. I'm going to need a lot given how bad my luck has been this game.

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turn 118

ARGH! Sorry Willy, I don't care who your daddy is!

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Willy is still at cautious because the +1 from resources kicked in.

I suspect with the way my luck is going, I will need 20 spies total.

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Turn 119

More spy production.

Here is the trade screen in case anyone wants to see what trades I have going

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Turn 120

More spy production basically

Turn 121

Mansa wants to renegotiate this deal and I add marble, why not, won't be using it for a while.

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Got 13 spys now, 3 more in the wings. 16 aint bad to start. I move 5 on Gao.

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Turn 122

Spy done in my cap and I start on elephants. 3 turn elephants isn't bad considering no HE. The other production tiles are being used by memphis.

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Memphis aint too shabby either

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Turn 123

I build barracks / troops in a few cities and wait for the 5 turn stationary mark on my spies. I will steal my way to engineering first for the +1 road movement.

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turn 124

More troop production, mansa goes education in 7 turns, heh. My guess is he will get lib around 500 AD and probably choose printing press. We'll see.

I'm using gaul to produce archers which will replace the swordsman I have garrisoned in some cities.

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turn 125

I have 15 of my spies waiting on Mansa's city. None have been spotted yet. Good luck for a change. 2 more turns and I can start stealing

turn 126

I get another great scientist. I will use one for a GA once I get engineering from Mansa.

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Oh ya Happy New Year

 

[nishant1911]

@absolute

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why so many unnecessary roads? i am sure there are many other better improvements left to built .

 

[Duckweed]

Good show so far, and looks better with a comparison aside.

I've been following along Kossin's Deity example game in Strategy and Tips and I was struck by how little he whipped, whereas one of the biggest things I've learned from Duckweed (Kossin's co-conspirator in the SGOTM12 game) over the past year or so of xOTMs is to whip harder. I'm having a hard time reconciling these approaches (but I have yet to really study Kossin's game closely, and in this game we really had no choice but to whip like mad because of the poor production). You've posted in Kossin's thread, Ducks, so you must be following at least a little. Care to comment? Please?

I'm pretty sure you are willing to explain yourself.

 

[kossin]

@Xcalibrator

Several reasons here, I will list a few:

1. Early on I did not whip much because I didn't have access to a granary as I prioritized science (Academy). I kept the second city at size 2~3~4 for a long time as I chopped workers and settlers from there which is faster long term than whipping.
2. I did whip afterwards (I have shown a few examples) but the food isn't exceptional here. Grassland hills give better production than whipping... keep 'em unless you need something immediately (blocking settler, etc.)
3. Once the food became better (Civil Service) I didn't whip much because I was anticipating a Golden Age
4. Under a GA, you want as much population as you can have to get the most benefit. Especially considering that 3 cities were dedicated to farming a GP, 1 city was at +2 food, 1 city was at size 2 and the remaining 3 cities were sharing their food tiles
5. I am planning mounted warfare against Mansa... speed whipping is of the essence (stay tuned)
6. Basically, once you've run out of land to expand into but are way under the "optimal expansion range", prepare your cities to expand more. Here it means grow and prepare for war.

 

[lymond]

I look forward to a detailed explanation of your speed whipping, Kos - with screenshots and numbers

 

[AbsoluteZero]

@absolute

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why so many unnecessary roads? i am sure there are many other better improvements left to built .

I didn't have CS yet, so no irrigation. Maybe a few of those roads are unnecessary but I want to make sure my troops move through my territory quickly because I will be attacking soon. I even roaded some of Mansas territory for after attack

Part 7, titled: "Legalize Crack? What are you smoking?"

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I'd just like to point out that in another thread some people were telling me building gold was a good idea if you had nothing else to build. As you can see after 126 turns I haven't had even one city with nothing else to build. Exactly the opposite, I've had too many things to build, all of which were more useful then building wealth.

turn 127

The theft begins

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I am going to steal philo because I can probably trade it to Willem for fuedalism. Then it's CS / macha / engy and Golden AGE to pump out quicker units.

Lets see how lucky I get with the spys. I use the great spy I've been saving till this point which gives me a grand total of almost 5000 EPs vs Mansa. Enough to steal him naked.

Philosophy

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Civil Service

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Machinery

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Engineering

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And Theology at 40% because I don't want to wait a turn

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Only lost 2 spys! Cool!

I switch to Beur + Theacracy and use a GS for my first GA

I still have 1600 spy points on Mansa. I think I will try to lift education off him later.


My target army is two initial stacks. One will take out Gao and move on to Timbuktu. The other will be smaller but will take out Kumbi Salah and will join up with the main stack after. I want 3 pikes and maybe 2 xbows for defense. The rest will be CR II maces, trebs and knights, with a few elly's thrown in for good measure.

With my GA I am producing 2 turn maces in thebes, 2 turn xbows in Memphis and 2 turn pikes in Helio. Everywhere else I will whip trebs.

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Obviously my attack date will have to be later then 300 AD. We'll try around 500 AD instead. Hopefully Mansa will go lib and avoid gunpowder. I move some spys up to Kumbi to take the defenses down when I attack.

Turn 128

I do the usual whiping where it's appropriate.

Then I do this trade:

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Turn 129

Feels good to get my first treb.

I do another trade to Willem for guilds:

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I didn't want to trade Willy engineering but he wouldn't accept just paper + theo

More troop production + I am roading part of Mansa's territory for when I take it

Turn 130

Mansa gets lib in 4 turns... Oh KOOOOSS'SIIIN... Mansa is only 2 turns behind your Lib teching in my game, buddy. He could easily have been quicker. I had a game once where Mansa got lib at 100 AD! What do you do then, huh?

Ya I know the lib race is not the whole game, but losing it hurts and it hurts big and Mansa only gets quicker the farther he techs...

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The tech situation at 375 AD

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I am pretty much caught up, I won't steal edu from mansa because I will use the remaining spy points to bring down his defenses for a faster conquest. Also seeing all his cities is a big advantage for as long as it lasts.

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Here's my latest save View attachment AZ shadow game AD-375.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[kossin]

Turn 130 - Turn 150

Problem #1...

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A shoot! Roosie decided to go for Education

Looks like my capital isn't half bad at churning out 1 unit/turn.

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All the way to turn 135, Roosevelt still doesn't want to trade me Nationalism for Education... so I have to finish Liberalism. I take PP because that's the only tech no one has.

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Another city contributing to the war effort. At 1 unit every 2 or 3 turns, whipping isn't very appealing.

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Apparently Mansa went into war mode after Willem (he was still Friendly at the time the red fist appeared). He's parking units right next to me... how convenient.

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I decide to make a go for Taj Mahal. Roosevelt doesn't have Marble and none of his cities can match my capital's production... so still not whipping.

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Trade missions... 3,000 gold from starving a couple of cities.

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Turn 142... my army so far.

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Turn 145... a few more. Without the capital contributing I still get some decent numbers out without whipping. I still don't have Military Tradition and Gunpowder so there's really no hurry to whip...

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Taj Mahal completed, yay!

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Same turn... stupid Mansa gives away his only possible protection. (he went into Free Religion so Roosevelt likes me more)

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Time to upgrade the troops... war is right around the corner.

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My army as of turn 150, some spies in place to revolt Mansa's city.

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My workers are pre-changing some mines to windmills... instead of having them sit around.

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What does Mansa use for promotions?

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Flanking?

I've started whipping unhappy citizens and unhealthy ones. Reinforcements throughout the war will be pretty constant and should allow me to push through Roosevelt afterwards (and maybe even Willem).

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A few things not pictured:
I sent Gao into revolt... the DoW happens now.
Traded some techs around, acquiring Gunpowder and Engineering mainly.

To summarize: the war buildup came from a few things:
- 2 trade missions for 3,000 gold
- no whipping but Golden Age hammering out from large cities
- some whipping of bad tiles/excessive unhealthiness

I have 3 cities with 9 turn of whip anger iIrc at this point... so it should be pretty easy to replicate.

If you want more details, ask for specifics because there aren't too many things going on.

 

[kossin]

Mansa gets lib in 4 turns... Oh KOOOOSS'SIIIN... Mansa is only 2 turns behind your Lib teching in my game, buddy. He could easily have been quicker. I had a game once where Mansa got lib at 100 AD! What do you do then, huh?

Ya I know the lib race is not the whole game, but losing it hurts and it hurts big and Mansa only gets quicker the farther he techs...

Read the game and adjust. If Mansa went after Liberalism harder, so would I. He didn't so I developed my cities instead of focusing on one thing.

I'm playing pretty laid back (see my lack of whip)

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Read the game and adjust. If Mansa went after Liberalism harder, so would I. He didn't so I developed my cities instead of focusing on one thing.

I'm playing pretty laid back (see my lack of whip)

So your saying you could beat 100 AD lib? He could have done that this game.

 

[kossin]

With 1~2 more bulbs... skip Music and go Currency>Civil Service directly would give a faster Liberalism.
It would certainly not be the best way to proceed... and I got bummed and got a "crappy" Printing Press from Liberalism while I wanted Military Tradition

I know what you mean though, it's the lack of focus from the AI that allows the human to beat them, especially on Deity.

Also remember the AI slightly avoids techs with a giveaway once they are already discovered (in my case, Roosevelt got Philosophy first so Mansa avoided it a long time).

I am not certain they stop going after it if you already have beakers in the tech though but it could be possible. Don't quote me on this one!

 

[lymond]

I played your save a little bit for fun. Will be interested to see your next move after taking Gao.

 

[Grashopa]

I played out to ~1500 BC and gave up!

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I scouted Mansa first thing and saw I'd be able to take him, get the gold and block all that land. Settled the horse city then *WCs. When I declared at 1600 BC, I found out Mansa went oracle-feudalism.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I played out to ~1500 BC and gave up!

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I scouted Mansa first thing and saw I'd be able to take him, get the gold and block all that land. Settled the horse city then *WCs. When I declared at 1600 BC, I found out Mansa went oracle-feudalism.

LOL Ya, that can happen too

I don't usually chariot rush Mansa because of those stupid skirmishers much less longbows

Part 8: "Revenge!"

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turn 131

Trebs Trebs Trebs. I need lots. I figure 2-3 trebs per city. I intend to take the cultural defenses down with spies so I don't need to bombard. Saves a LOT of time in this era.

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Turn 132

I whip a little in both Memphis and Helio to speed things up just a notch.

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Turn 133

Mansa gets lib at 450 AD and chooses economics. And this is why I hate diety Mansa. Assuming I made it to lib that fast I would have had to choose something like PP or nationalism.

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I cancel the horse deal with Mansa to make some knights

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Turn 134

The AP vote comes up and I vote for Rosie, which gets him to Friendly. Hopefully he will stay that way when I attack Mansa.

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Mansa goes optics. Hopefully that will mean he goes for astro.

Turn 135

I position two stacks at the ready to go into Mansa's territory. Mansa does have more overall troops then me, however they are defending his cities and can't all be mobilized.

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Here is mansa's troops

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vs mine

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Turn 136

I have decided to wait till the next AP election. I could attack now but I don't want the next AP vote to come up and have to defy or something. This will give me more time to get troops + vote for rosy again and keep him at friendly. Mansa is a long way from Grenadeers anyhow.

Turns 137 - 143

Whipping hard and making units. Mansa techs like a beast, getting astro / PP and god knows what else, most of it in 2 turns. No gunpowder though.

Turn 144

The AP election vote comes up and I vote for Rosie. He will stay friendly even when I attack Mansa. He won't let me beg anything from him though.

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Here are mansas troops

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Here are my troops

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It's now or never

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Turn 145

Mansa moves some small stacks to help defend his cities.

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I use a spy to revolt the city. With bombardment it would take me 2 extra turns to take this city. That means 2 extra turns mansa can whip defenders, and two extra turns before I move farther into his territory.

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I lose 3 trebs to the defenders and take the city with no other losses.

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I move my troops in the city and wait for Mansa to suicide with his two stacks.

Turn 146

Mansa does suicide 2 units. I decide to sacrifice my cats and take out his stacks.

I lose all 3 cats + 1 unit trying to take out his small stack but when I do I pop a GG, make a medic 3 unit and FINALLY begin building the HE in my capitol.

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I don't intend on healing my units, time is of the essense. Instead I will march on to Timbuktu. I leave the weakened units to defend the city.

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Turn 147

Mansa will already sign peace heh.

The long march to Timbuktu.

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Turn 148

Kumbi whatever.

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And the fall.

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No losses, whoowhooo!

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Part 9: Mansas last stand

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Turn 149

Timbuktu

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Turns out Mansa stacked so many defenders in Timbuktu that I couldn't take them all out in one turn

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Turn 150

The fall of Timbuktu. Mansa Gets Currasiers! I only have a few elephants too. Lame. Stupid Rosy

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Turn 151

I camp Timbuktu to heal while I send trebs to help with Niani. I don't have the spy points to revolt at this point.

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Turn 152

Willy is in WHEOOHRN mode. I send a knight to find his stack. His worst enemy is Rosy followed by mansa then me. So hopefully he's not going to be totally lame and declare on me.

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Turn 153

Bombard. Going to take 2 more turns. Sigh!

Turn 154

Meet SB and Shaka. Shaka is vassalled to SB. They are both very backwards but that is sure to change soon with 4 new trading partners.

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I make this trade

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I spot Willys stack and it looks like he's going for Mansa. Finally some luck!

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Turn 155

The last bombard against Niani, I'm going to lose a lot of trebs next turn...

Turn 156

Meet Zara and bribe him to war against Mansa.

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Nani falls with just a few treb losses. Nice!

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Mansa will give lots of gold for peace but he won't capitulate. He probably change his mind after Orange declares on his arse

Turn 157

Moved my troops in preperation to take Mansas new capitol.

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Turn 158

I agree to this and gets him to pleased.

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THIS was the last thing I wanted to see.... cannons

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Turn 159

moving in on djenne

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Turn 160

I switch every city to building wealth except my capitol. I'm bleeding gold bad. SB decides to be an ass.

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turn 161

I use a spy to revolt Djenne and take it the same turn.

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Here is where I am at so far.

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turn 161 - 164

At this point I am going full out for the capitulation of mansa for a certain reason which I will reveal in the future. I know 2 more cities should do it. Hopefully he doesn't peace vassal to rosie in the meantime. I heal on Timbuktu in preperation for the next attack.

turn 165

I move closer to Mansas next city.

Turn 166

Mansa is brutal with his cannons. He just slams them into me and there isn't much I can do about it

Here it goes...

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Another one bites the dust.

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I popped a great general who I will save till I can make a military academy.

Mansa finally gives in

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That'll teach you to steal music from me, jerk

I can trade divine right for banking to Zara.

I also make sure Mansa only trades with me

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Willy goes out of WHEOOHRN mode, I guess his target was Mansa after all.

I sign a defensive pact with Rosy.

I have a devious plan for a domination win at this point. I'll reveal it later...

I think next update will be sometime tomorrow. I'm a bit burned out right now

Here is my latest save: View attachment AZ shadow game AD-1060.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Loknar]

I follow the perfection of your timing with awe! Now after golden ages that lead to trade missions that lead to troop upgrading while producing units and executing that trade and policy diplo all is ready for a quick war with tech superiority! I find it amazing especially considering some things like MT go wrong and you simply adapt!

Thanks a lot for the great game and your explanations, I'm learning a lot! Sadly I can't contribute too much on topic.

 

[nishant1911]

this is one of the most interesting deity threads i've ever been too

kossin as usually writing a flawless walkthrough
while absolute is playing the same game in a completely different and interesting way.
i just wanna say to both of you -

 

[Pinďa]

Wonderful games and reports, both kossin and AbsoluteZero!

 

[kossin]

Working on next update, should be an hour or two or a bit more. Apparently I only have 2 screenshots from the Mansa war

 

[kossin]

Turn 150 - Turn 159

Ok so I slightly lied, I only played up to 980 AD (still as of this report) so you are up to date.

Please note I had to replay some of the turns from the war to take screenshots. Some events may not be carried as exactly as when I did it the first time due to bad memory etc. (Especially turn 152-153)

Turn 150

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At the start of the turn, DoW Mansa. Odds are rather good because the city is in revolt.

I forget if I lost anything but maybe 1 Cuirassier.

I send in a HA, promote to Combat II and then upgrade him to Cuirassier for defense.

I send the spies as scouts because I don't have enough EP to do anything else (and I don't want to spend gold on EP). The cursor is over Djenne (I forgot to start the printscreen program I use).

At the same time, my other stack is attacking Mansa's north city. For fun I promoted a HA to Flanking 2 and it worked

I decided to not capture the city this turn because I ran out of Cuirassiers while I had some spare HAs.

Turn 151

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Mansa moves his stack over to Timbuktu??? Why no counterattack...

Regardless, I clean up his stray units... so much easier on flat ground.

GG medic couldn't quite make it to the injured stack (he cleaned up a Crossbow). This also unlocks the Heroic Epic which will go in my second city.

Capture second city...

At size 17 and under a Golden Age, my capital contributes a whole bunch even without the HE.

Turn 152

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Next turn, Mansa foolishly moves his SoD on open ground.

Cleaning up... (note, this actually happened on turn 153, I only remembered later, but this should give you an idea)

To fix the unhappiness, add 10% culture...

Mansa's remaining SoD...

Turn 153

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In the actual game, I actually let Mansa enter my territory on the last turn and healed more instead. I had forgotten this when I took screenshots...
So consider this the turn where I wiped off his SoD.

Turn 154

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Here is an example of a fork attack. The AI doesn't handle this very well... so he will defend his capital and kinda ignore Djenne.

Turn 155

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Captured Djenne. It was on a hill so causalities were slightly higher but there were only 5 defenders if memory serves. It's a very good capture!

Turn 156

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Meanwhile, I'm moving troops to attack Mansa's other north city, but also preparing to move on the capital. Notice Mansa has had time to rebuild a so-so SoD already in the capital.

Kumbi Saleh is mine! The Colossus makes coastal tiles much better so I will want to prioritize them and perhaps push back Astronomy a bit as I want to clean up my continent before moving to the rest.

Turn 157

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Healing and moving troops...

Turn 158

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Kill a round of units in Timbuktu (there are a lot now and my units are pretty spread.)

Turn 159

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I capture Timbuktu this turn... quite a prize once again! The Minaret and Angkor Wat suggests religious buildings.

Mansa's capitulation terms. I wasn't sure whether to take Chemistry or Constitution so I went with hammers. Now that I think again I might have been better off with Constitution.

Why capitulation now when I'm steamrolling him?
-I want to get Roosevelt ASAP before he gets Grenadiers (or too many of them).
-Mansa's cities will provide a culture buffer to reach Roosevelt faster and better movement to kill his units
-I want a good trading partner with some research ability. At 4 cities he'll be a decent help.
-I've got all of Mansa's important stuff:

The cost of the war: 11 cuirassiers and 1 HA... 1150 hammers. I gained 5 cities (500 hammers, over 1000 gold, 2 GG's, Heroic Epic and a very good vassal)

Speaking of which, making use of a vassal... get me Corporation.

Gimme your gold!

Tech situation. I have almost 2,000 gold saved up from having a 0% slider and taking cities. I'm really not doing so bad.

I'll post something about where I might take the game next... as I haven't played further yet.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Part 10: The Redemption

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I'm not going through it turn by turn this time, I'll just mention the good stuff.

starting at turn 166

I give back 1 town to Mansa because it is crap and I don't want to supress revolts there.

From this point I whip / build hindu monasteries and temples in all my cities because I get +2 production and +2 gold from each ( spiral minaret ).

I assign specialists in my GP farm town for another golden age.

I trade Zara Divine right for Banking.

Then I build banks, markets and guilds in all my towns. I'm going to need a lot of gold.

I set Mansa to research Physics then Electricity then Fusion

I keep my spy points on Mansa because your vassals can't detect your spys and you can change around your vassals civics for the optimum spy bonus Not to mention the fact that Mansa does not yet have democracy, and hopefully I can keep it that way

EVERY single turn I check and make sure Mansa isn't trading with someone else, if he is a bribe him to stop.

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Bastage!

Problem is sometimes it doesn't seem to work. I see him get certain techs somehow even though he says hes not trading with anyone and I don't think he's stealing them. GRRRR!

turn 177 I get a great artist and use a great scientist to start a GA.

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Do a little deal with SB for astro

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I move my capitol to Timbuktu to be closer to both Mansa and Rosy for spying. Also a nice spot if you're in bureaucracy.

I wont bother to build any libraries / universities / research labs / oxford / any other research bonus buildings for the rest of the game because I will steal my way to what I need. I will never raise my tech slider above 0 for the rest of the game.

Some jerk builds a privateer and decides to harass my town.

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Look at this crap.

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There needs to be some sort of command that says "Stop trading with this guy untill I tell you otherwise!". As a bonus it would be nice if it actually worked too.

The little jerk somehow got democracy.

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I checked him every turn too.

I lift nationalism off mansa

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Timbuktu aint a bad capitol

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I steal constitution off Mansa. This helps a lot in the spy race.

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I immediately whip jails.

Lots of building. I steal democracy from mansa for the extra spy points. I build / whip bureaus

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I trade democracy to SB

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I steal physics

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replacable parts

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The tech race

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I don't have a problem with letting SB have this

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Meh, I'll let Zara have it too

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My civics at this point

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In 1430 AD I get a GE and do my final Golden age

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I got the stuff

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I switch spy points to rosy because I have enough to steal most everything from Mansa now.

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I notice Willy is in WHEOOHRN mode with a considerable stack near my border.

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