Let's prove it! Roman deity competition

[Lewarks]

Question of timming : you can get to Machinery with GS quite quicly. If you succeed in this, the AIs have few units able to counter your XBow. Most of them will be bow/mele units. Since you have Machinery (sorry for my mistake, I used the french version "Mecanique" ...), you can get to Ingeniering (one GS later) for Trebuchet which will help you finishing your first target. Although I agree with you, I didn't find CKN totally overpowered compare to regular Protective XBow. Pro XBow are fine.

Question of gamble : Well, if I don't have access to any iron ressource, i'll know it long time before Machinery. Therefore, I'll be able to change my plan. I do not say it's not hurting my big plan, but it's absolutely possible to recover from that. If you have whip Baraks and build Warriors for upgrades into Praets and you don't have iron, I can't see what you could do.

 

[Mylene]

Well i won the fight against Alex, and have decent options now.
Good gold banked, trades available, 1 turn from construction to add Cats as needed.
But to be honest, these type of games are a bit of a drag and not how i enjoy playing it
Still, should be winnable from here.

Spoiler :

 

[AbsoluteZero]

EDIT: BTW, any advice on how to continue?

Spoiler :

I am almost 100% sure shaka will dogpile charly.

What you can do is immediately declare on charly, this will put more pressure on him which might make him capitulate to genghis. If that happens genghis will gain a vassal AND because shaka hates charly shaka will maybe hate genghis + charly, which makes a very good target for shaka and gives you some breathing room to tech.

*edit* nvm was thinking of my game not yours. Bleh. There may be no way to stop shaka from vassaling charly. Once that happens the game's probably over. The only chance is for you to sit back and catch up in tech if you can. Spying is probably no good because you don't dare switch into hinduism for the spy bonus.

*edit edit* woops, didn't realize you had a gspy. This means you can easily steal engineering and get back in the fight. Produce lots of trebs + pikes and go for mongolia AFTER shaka declares on charly. Shaka WILL win vs charly eventually ( hopefully not for a while. Shaka likes Mongolia so once you vassal him you will have better relations with shaka.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Well i won the fight against Alex, and have decent options now.
Good gold banked, trades available, 1 turn from construction to add Cats as needed.
But to be honest, these type of games are a bit of a drag and not how i enjoy playing it
Still, should be winnable from here.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Nice work Mylene, when did you attack with HA's? I was forced to attack genghis around 550 BC ( alex was going fuedalism ).

 

[MarigoldRan]

You should actually start reading others post...

Again, the difference between Praets and CKNs is the timming. You'll know if you have iron or not just when you'll hit Praets. I would really know how you plan your games. Do you start build up your economy and sudently start whipping Praets if you have iron? Or do you plan for a rush and switch for economic buildings if you miss iron?

When you go for Mecanic for a CKN rush, you already know you have iron.

Sorry, but I can't figure it out. You tech to Aestetic and trade it for Iron Working. Then, if you miss iron, you build a Settler to found an iron city. And then you produce Praets for a "rush".

I wouldn't say such a rush is impossible, but it's just a gamble. You have to have the good start, the good ressources and the good neigbour with an easy way to cut off is metal.

Also, be more clear. Do you speak about "Praets" or "Praets rush". Nobody would say Praets are bad I think. A 8 strength unit so early... However, if it's about the "Praets rush" ...

Wait. Romans start with fishing. I guess as the Chinese you can GS Machinery, so that's your point.

I just develop normally and if I see Iron and an acceptable target, I go. If it's high-commerce gold start, I can self-tech IW.

If I have Marble, it's definitely an option to Oracle CoL, trade for techs like IW and go. That's the alternative path. Most of my cities at this point will only have granaries and maybe a couple of barracks, with a library in the capital, so it's not much of a change.

If they have bronze or whatever, I don't really care. Cutting it off is nice, but it's hard. Your first two fights in every major engagement against non-Agg people are at about 35% odds, and the rest is easy. Suicide praets at this stage are better than suicide catapults.

BTW, by the time I hit Alex with HAs, he already had Construction, and someone was trading him Ivory. Mylene, when was your start time?

Also, in the praet game, I could have finished Alex much earlier, except the Zulus DOWed in the middle of it. So it was a matter of fighting off two AGG AIs, one of which had ample amounts of elephants, HAs, and catapults. Couldn't have done it without praets.

The Aesthetics line is pretty standard. So even if you don't rush, you're on par.

 

[Mylene]

@AZ think around turn 90 i DoW..
moved up ~9 HAs near Athens while building my others, he had only 3-4 units inside most times.
But then he had 5 good defenders including 2 str 2/3 spears, so i took Sparta first on a fork attack.
Lured some units outside of Athens, and took it as last city in my screenie.

Tough rush, failure rate isn't small..Pyras is an ok option with settling a city on stone, strange he got Ivory in your game, only Charly offered me Jumbos and he surely doesn't like Alex ~~

 

[Duckweed]

It would be interesting if other players can show different warring strategies to win this game, especially your units used in the 1st war. For instance

HAs -- What Mylene is doing, but the situation is far from winning, remember the fastest date of seeing the victory screen.

Cat + something non-praet -- ?

Cui and then Cavs -- It seems that Obsolete have been doing in many of the forum games, but later than 1700AD victory will not be competitive in a Pangaea map.

Praets -- MarigoldRan is doing, but have not shown the victory yet. I could do something on this part.

Spoiler :

I guess Shaka is the biggest threat in this game.

 

[MarigoldRan]

It would be interesting if other players can show different warring strategies to win this game, especially your units used in the 1st war. For instance

HAs -- What Mylene is doing, but the situation is far from winning, remember the fastest date of seeing the victory screen.

Cat + something non-praet -- ?

Cui and then Cavs -- It seems that Obsolete have been doing in many of the forum games, but later than 1700AD victory will not be competitive in a Pangaea map.

Praets -- MarigoldRan is doing, but have not shown the victory yet. I could do something on this part.

Spoiler :

I guess Shaka is the biggest threat in this game.

Feel free to continue with my save. I'll play it at some point, but right now I'm testing HOF potential strats.

 

[Manco Capac]

Well, it ended way better than I expected. Of course, as mentioned, pure preats rush make one very backward...

Here's my second checkpoint - T144 (680 AD)

Spoiler :

After moving my warrior SE and discovering nothing, I SIP without reason to move.
The sheeps attrated me, but I felt it was too risky and according to my policy, if I fail the game, it is definitive fail.

I moved my initial warrior eastward as that was the move increasning AI encounter.
Right, I met Alex, thanks Duckweed.
I stop on a forest waiting for a worker or barb opportunity for XPs.
Probably one of the most critical moment was that 1 HP left barb warrior next to my forest I attacked at 70 % and gained 3 XPs.
Later another barb warrior approached me at <0.8 HP and I attacked for woodsman II promo. This time, the risk was zilch.

Near Sparta (Alex founded Hinduism and Monotheism, weird!), there was a wheat tile I pillaged at once. Fortunately the roads were paved along a way the AI workers will minimize movement, thus making impossible to archers to suddenly attack me.

Later after 3-4 stolen workers, he started pumping chariots, but fortunately, I had horses in my BFC. (I went Agri. ==> BW ==> AH ==> Wheel ==> Partial IW and Writing)

He was starting sending some squads of chariots and archers I killed. Unfortunately, he wasn't about to give in, so I raised an enormous army of chariots and went for the judaism holy city (which had gold, wheat, cow and two FPs :yum.

What I discovered was appalling, almost no garrisons. I decided to give flanking to one of my chariot and he survived. Unfortunately, the two next chariots died without scratching the archer...

Anyways, I took the city and was about to take Sparta, but in the end I found out it was too risk and went peace for IW (the seven remaining turns at max research).
A chance I killed that lone archer because Alex suddenly recovered his confidence to take back a city, but after the kill, his self-assertively burst at once.

There was iron in the north on a desert plot and it seemed no sea food was around (unfortunately there was one clam plot way farther) and I founded the city in the iron to avoid waiting time.

Meanwhile Genghis was after Charlie along his crazy friend Shaka. The funny thing is his lone city near Corinth (Judaism cradle) guarded at first by an axeman and a chariot and later nothing. I loled and razed (automatic) that city with iron.
I strategically placed my chariots to take those two workers...
After I gunned for his city on a PH copper plot. Unfortunately, I was unlucky and lost all my chariots.

But that wasn't a great matter as my preats were coming. After many skirmishes, I made peace and went for Alex once again to capture Sparta and Athens. Peace afterwards for tech milking. Of course, I had many diplo hits with Mao in the far north, but that was a risk to take...

Later I finished off Alex and the last side city (40% culture) was epic (although I had enough troops to take the city), I won twice around 20% and then at ~40% and won a ~66%. Well, it is nice to feel some luck for the cherry on the cake.

After gathering all my preats (without catas), I went for the final long war against Genghis to end up with a peace treaty (and all his cities except a barb city he captured way in the north) for feudalism, Calendar and Construction.

And a new friend, buddist Charlie.

The last had a settled GProphet and I didn't have the heart to raze, so I kept.

No risk Shaka going after me as I looked beforehand the cultural pattern and Charlie culture will make a chokepoint, so Shaka won't do any harm to me but Charlie. Shaka DoWed so many times Charlie he refuses to OB with him.
I bulbed Philo and traded it for Bureaucracy with friendly Charlie.

In this game, Mao is a monster techer and went for liberalism at ~580 AD.
All the time I was glaring at him to know if he was going after me, but didn't think about it once. I gave the most northern greek city totally culturally pressured by super Mao for a +2 diplo stance. I'm at +1 with him right now, but I have the power to make longbows and not so far crossbowmen and macemen. I think I am safe, but Athens is terrible under culture pressure and I need to preserve that city.

In the end, Karakorum and Athens are cities that can trained CR3 preats or CG3 longbows.

End of the checkpoint - T144.
Empire overview :

Kill Stats:

From this chekpoint. Am I in reasonably good position?

 

[Dirk1302]

^You're in great position, best save i've seen sofar.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Amusing. Apparently chariot rushes trump all.

I guess both sides were wrong.

Glad you're enjoying the praets afterwards though. They're a powerful unit.

In your game, the Greeks must have managed to not get the Bronze city in time.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Tachywaxon, good as you're save is you're losing far too much money on maintenance now. Build a courthouse in every city (2 pop whip being organized) . I would do that even if i wasn't organized, here with such a large empire and maintenance through the roof.

Espionage is your friend being a bit behind. With so many cities you can easily research and have espionage together. Those courthouses will also help you there.

 

[Mylene]

Chariot rush is a lucky shot on Deity thou, just like late Oracle etc

 

[MarigoldRan]

Chariot rush is a lucky shot on Deity thou, just like late Oracle etc

Still, he built 72 praets by 680 AD. As I said, they're rather cheap and work against LBs. Catapults optional.

 

[Manco Capac]

Amusing. Apparently chariot rushes trump all.

I guess both sides were wrong.

Glad you're enjoying the praets afterwards though. They're a powerful unit.

In your game, the Greeks must have managed to not get the Bronze city in time.

Spoiler :

When I choke (or annoy an AI), by experience, the best is a bunch of chariots in an environment populated with chariots and archers.
I knew it wasn't the end of the world thanks to bragging function about strongest unit,
on condition we are weaker (on deity of course) .

As I said in some thead by Grasshopa, you can eliminate 1 or 2 AI's at best with preats. Lucky shots may lead to 3 at max on normal speed.
I have to admit overwhelming armies of preats can even overwhelm 4 longbows and bunch of other stuff (not on hill though).

Greece didn't manage to get copper because I had impact on their development through choking and worker stealing.

@Tachywaxon, good as you're save is you're losing far too much money on maintenance now. Build a courthouse in every city (2 pop whip being organized) . I would do that even if i wasn't organized, here with such a large empire and maintenance through the roof.

Espionage is your friend being a bit behind. With so many cities you can easily research and have espionage together. Those courthouses will also help you there.

Spoiler :

Good point.
The biggest threat at this is Mao. Not sure how I deal him given -5 diplo hit coming from "you have declared on our friend".
Bismarck is busy right now with OCC Genghis, so one moment or another Genghis will no longer exist, killing his culture influence inside my latest cities.

I should try to get Monotheism soon...OR with ORG civ is best to maximize the trait use. And infra is lacking hard. And I could've some politic power via AP for a broken fast win.

Chariot rush is a lucky shot on Deity thou, just like late Oracle etc

Spoiler :

Not completely agreeing with you.
I somehow choked the AI, I didn't bother too much the AI in their surroundings provoking too much whipped archers; I knew there wasn't early metal (copper) around thanks to bragging function; at some point, he was willing peace thanks to my huge army of chariots, and by experience when the AI is gunning for monotheism, they are somewhat weak.

But if you say I'm lucky Alex when that tech route, well, you are right. On highest levels, it is taking opportunites that count.

 

[Mylene]

Doesn't change that it doesn't work more often than it does
Same with catching lots of cities, but being in an economy hole + having lots of (soon) outdated units.
It's an instant game over if there is 1 very strong AI, and a struggle if not.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Doesn't change that it doesn't work more often than it does
Same with catching lots of cities, but being in an economy hole + having lots of (soon) outdated units.
It's an instant game over if there is 1 very strong AI, and a struggle if not.

I don't know. On this map it seems like praets got a (slightly) higher score than HAs.

Your HA rush worked. AZ's and mine did not. Tachy used praets pretty effectively after a chariot-attack and choke.

Maybe Duckweed can post another game and we can see how it goes.

 

[Mylene]

Possible
Great effort by @Tachy ofc.
I still didn't play on, too lazy atm and more on EQ..

 

[Manco Capac]

Doesn't change that it doesn't work more often than it does
Same with catching lots of cities, but being in an economy hole + having lots of (soon) outdated units.
It's an instant game over if there is 1 very strong AI, and a struggle if not.

Spoiler :

Only Mao is a threat. Shaka is blocked by protective Charlie and Charlie is my total friend. Bismark is busy for now.
So all I need to do is stacking many units in some northern cities, then I am somewhat safe. The outdated units will be used for garrisson and happiness through HR.

I have a slight chance of survival for now.
But with that much of warmonger, isn't that normal the environment is inherently dangerous?

 

[Dirk1302]

^

Spoiler :

-5 for declaring on friend, that's a lot. But NP. You have twice as much cities as Mao has, Mao is only high in the rankings because of tech, praets in northern cities will keep you save from an l attack. There are good diplo solutions as well, You can get to +4 for fair trade , a few other modifiers and he'll be pleased. But maybe provoke an attack, he'll smash on hard walls, as he's the next target anyway an attack from him may help you. For now just consolidate the empire.