Let's prove it! Roman deity competition

[Manco Capac]

^

Spoiler :

-5 for declaring on friend, that's a lot. But NP. You have twice as much cities as Mao has, Mao is only high in the rankings because of tech, praets in northern cities will keep you save from an l attack. There are good diplo solutions as well, You can get to +4 for fair trade , a few other modifiers and he'll be pleased. But maybe provoke an attack, he'll smash on hard walls, as he's the next target anyway an attack from him may help you. For now just consolidate the empire.

Thanks for your help.

Spoiler :

Just took a look DanF5771's spreadsheet to refresh my mind in regards to Mao probability of war...ouch even at pleased he is quite risky.
Even with +4 forthright trade, I gain +3 total stance, not enough.
But Athens is a strong GG city next to Mao. Time to whip CG3 LBs...after some culture infra to take back some tiles. I am losing against him in the culture war. With all the preat garrison, I will whip hard.
Oh, I forgot to mention Alex left me a small gift: An academy!

Obsolete was right: on deity, culture war is difficult...especially when the adversary city has wonder(s)

After all, I think my power rate went over the threshold and perhaps that is why Mao didn't backstabbed me.

As you suggested, the best I could get is a GSpy. I remember it worked marvellously in another game, but being the second GP, it will take some time unless...I gamble. A GScientist is always good anyways.

 

[Duckweed]

All right, I tried a bloody and messy style of playing. Let me tell you a story of praets in a real game.

1600 BC

Spoiler :

Iron was revealed, in the same time, had 1 settler ready to grab the site. This map is not a good start for Roman since it has no seafood resources and we have to research AH for the cow. The tech path is Agri->AH->wheel->BW->IW.

775BC

Spoiler :

12 praets were ready to DOW Alex.

Take a look at the tech screen, have you foreseen anything?

Alex was the only AI went WHOOHRN and he was an advanced AI, so he could bribe others to help him on the war. Abort the plan? Let's just face it and see how praets are going to deal with mess! As expected, the result was that Shaka and Mao DOWed me intthe next turn.

500BC

Spoiler :

Took Sparta. Meeting 7 spears from Alex, I'm wondering how many loss would be if I used HAs.

475BC

Spoiler :

Shaka came, not a good time since many of my praets were wounded when taking Sparta. I had to pause the progress on Alex side and stayed on defense against Shaka. By the way, Mao just gave me some gold after I killed his small stack in the open field.

350AD

Spoiler :

Not many things to be mentioned before that, after killing ~30 units from Shaka, I still had to give him Aes (that was a gift from Alex) for peace. With 3 dozens of Praets, I attacked multiple Greek cities in the same time, picked CoL and something for peace. This was done in 100 AD.

Here I made the 1st big mistake, did not bribe Shaka leaving the war, suddenly, both Shaka and GK took 1 city from Charley in the same turn so Charley became a vassal of Shaka.

Now my SOD were in position for next victim, the protective and very advanced Mao. His city defense was just scary, Shanghai was 85%, and Beijing was 125%! Most of my cats were still on the way. So I just brought the only 2 cats, as you could see in the screenshot, that's all for Shanghai, another 4 cats for Beijing, and none for his 3rd city Nanjing. Mao had protective CKNs and LBs, and macemans. Are you feeling desperate? I was not, praets are GREAT! It was about 1:1 loss ratio, and most important, it's swift, I took the cities without wasting time for bombardment.

Beijing

It will become my GP farms for me to catch up the tech hole, of course, with the help of Mao and Bismarck in the near future.

600AD

Spoiler :

Mao was ready for capitulation, the whole war took 10 turns.

For anyone who is wondering about the power of praets, you can play from my 350AD save and watch how praets climb the 125% defensive Wall!

 

[Manco Capac]

Spoiler :

desperate? I was not, praets are GREAT! It was about 1:1 loss ratio, and most important, it's swift, I took the cities without wasting time for bombardment.

Completely astounding! Last time I saw you at insane great work was BOTM40 and once again, you swept everyone else.

Wow...

I guess that is the power of a super deity player.

 

[Mylene]

uuh...what you are saying is, 1:1 ratio with Praets against prot. bows is normal.
Think i've read enough of those stories ~~

 

[Duckweed]

@Tachywaxon

Spoiler :

Took a quick look at your save, very good position, especially on diplomatic side.

Gift the border city to Charley, you only need to deal with Mao, as you see in my game, that's just a quick and dirty work!

I don't see any difficulty of winning from there.

 

[Manco Capac]

@Tachywaxon

Spoiler :

Took a quick look at your save, very good position, especially on diplomatic side.

Gift the border city to Charley, you only need to deal with Mao, as you see in my game, that's just a quick and dirty work!

I don't see any difficulty of winning from there.

Spoiler :

Hmm. I am not really sure. I remember a comment about Numidian calvary rush walkthrough by AbsoluteZero; it was something like "we think NC aren't that good, their success comes more from your skill".
You seem very used to extreme situations and glaring all those cho-ko-nu, macemen and other stuff, I don't feel the courage now.
I didn't look at your save yet, but I think you just stop Mao in his course for Lib, simply astounding!

 

[Duckweed]

Spoiler :

Hmm. I am not really sure. I remember a comment about Numidian calvary rush walkthrough by AbsoluteZero; it was something like "we think NC aren't that good, their success comes more from your skill".
You seem very used to extreme situations and glaring all those cho-ko-nu, macemen and other stuff, I don't feel the courage now.
I didn't look at your save yet, but I think you just stop Mao in his course for Lib, simply astounding!

Spoiler :

There are some warring skill needed, but not that complicated. The absolute number overwhelms everything.

1. You don't need to worry about the offensive attacking from Mao, that's simply good, since your counter attack kill those more advanced and expensive units immediately.

2. Some cats are quite helpful, not because of their desperately slow bombardment against wall and castle, but their ability to wound every unit, which increases your winning odd dramatically.

3. Level 3 units are best for sacrificing. Save you veterans for high odd battles.

 

[Manco Capac]

3. Level 3 units are best for sacrificing. Save you veterans for high odd battles.
[/SPOILER]

Quite interesting. I was doing the contrary. I suppose it is all about wounding odd.
In addition to the fact it takes a lot to reach next level for non-charismatic leader...? Starting with weaker ones mean more loss without scratch, which I encountered quite often. Thanks again.

I shall keep this in mind, like the trick (long time ago) you gave to me about moving to and fro mounted units to force units to go out of their cities.

 

[MarigoldRan]

A long time ago, there was this emperor, see, who loved beautiful clothes.

He had a lot of money, and boy did he spend it on clothes!

One day two swindlers came into his city and convinced the emperor they could make the most beautiful clothes in the world, BUT ONLY THOSE WHO ARE INTELLIGENT CAN SEE THEM.

And so they did. They made invisible clothes of wondrous beauty, and the emperor, naturally enough, since a person can't see something that is invisible, couldn't see them.

"Oh my god." Thought the emperor. "I must be stupid. Can't let anyone else know."

And so the emperor said to his swindlers, "my lord, you're making wonderful clothes. Keep up the good work."

Shortly afterward, the emperor called in his minister to examine his invisible suit of clothes. The minister saw nothing, but he thought, "oh god, I must be stupid. Can't let anyone else know." And so he ALSO said it was a lovely suit of clothes.

Through WORD-OF-MOUTH, and because THE SWINDLERS AND HIS DUPES WERE REPEATING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND SLANDERING THOSE WHO DID NOT AGREE WITH THEM, soon everyone in the city convinced themselves that the emperor was wearing beautiful clothes, albeit invisible.

The emperor had a parade and everyone remarked how lovely the clothes were. Even though the clothes were invisible and probably didn't exist in the first place.

The moral of the story? Test things and think things out for yourself.

Speaking of which, this is only one map. Perhaps it should be tried on others?

 

[AbsoluteZero]

@Duckweed

I tried your save and Mao peacevassalled to shaka when it took bejing.

Taking on an AI with engineering with just praets + cats is not a wise move. You may have managed it, but you got lucky on several levels, 1st being that Mao didn't have many units, second being that he didn't peacevassal to shaka ( who certainly did have lots of units ).

As for the earlier praet rush, it was 775BC, that's a little too close to longbows for my taste. Alex was certainly in the position to get them early with double gems in his capitol. At such a late date you might as well have gone for a 500 BC construction + Praet rush.

So far none of this has really proved praetorians are a top unit on deity. Like I have always said, they are a decent unit that gives you a slight advantage, but in no way are they amazing or overpowered. What duckweed did could have been done with elephants + cats.

 

[sossos]

@Duckweed

I tried your save and Mao peacevassalled to shaka when it took bejing.

Taking on an AI with engineering with just praets + cats is not a wise move. You may have managed it, but you got lucky on several levels, 1st being that Mao didn't have many units, second being that he didn't peacevassal to shaka ( who certainly did have lots of units ).

As for the earlier praet rush, it was 775BC, that's a little too close to longbows for my taste. Alex was certainly in the position to get them early with double gems in his capitol. At such a late date you might as well have gone for a 500 BC construction + Praet rush.

So far none of this has really proved praetorians are a top unit on deity. Like I have always said, they are a decent unit that gives you a slight advantage, but in no way are they amazing or overpowered. What duckweed did could have been done with elephants + cats.

Agree. Praet is decent, but Duckweed's way is gambling. It's too risky to go IW directly when you don't know where the iron is. Knowing the map makes big differences, and it's the same as S/L. To be a fanatic of civ, it's better to try the strategy as if you don't know anything about the map. From this point, I prefer the style of Tachy and Mylene.
Changing Rome to other civ, this map can also be won, just in different ways. When Rome is addicted to sacrificing praet before 125% defence, other civ can choose to climb the tech and rush when their uu is supreme.

Spoiler :

I tried a little bit in the morning. On this map, Rome can build 6~7 cities. With silver and river, tech is also OK. Augstin's trait is still awesome: "fish->sailing->lighthouse boom" together with 5 cities by turn 60. If I were toku, I might choose chariot rush with 2 or 3 cities. However, with Augstin, it's more comfortable for me to rush after alphabet, with HA or Praet, depending on the iron availability. A temper rush for iron with the second rush after Feudalism is also an option. I will explore further at night.

 

[Habitus]

Interesting seeing some of the play thrus I got tempted by sheep, microed badly (partly cause the SS i'm working on for hof + sgotm had an error in it, partly cause i just messed up) and ended up deciding to stop as my warring skills weren't going to be up to dragging me back into this

Praet is decent, but Duckweed's way is gambling

I'd agree if i hadn't read some of the SGotM threads and seen warring on the edge like this alot, and it working far more than it fails.

 

[Manco Capac]

So in order for this to actually work, each participant in this competition would have to put enough time, effort and good will in trying both options : Praets VS something else (HA rush, Cats+Phants, whatever).
But I doubt it will happen....

Starting to read the earlier posts...

Anyways, I completely disagree with trying both ways given you have map knowledge.
That is why I gave up praet #1 (now I think about it, perhaps I gave up way too early); knowing map forbade me to try again. Map knowledge is helping way too much.

I agree with Duckweed's results are not a proof. With him, there's isn't any UU as all UU's look awesome under his control.

Still, I have felt from my attempt preats are cheap and quite useful.
Someone else should give a shot to give a bigger sample though...

 

[Manco Capac]

microed badly

Yeah. Without BUFFY MOD, I was so much in the dark.
My micro was terribly bad (but not as much as taking the whole army and pitch them onto the enemy )...I should try for the same mod as Duckweed (forgot the name).
Seriously, I forgot how the original interface was annoying...still, perhaps this could a method to practice grand strat. instead being obsessed with micro.

========================================================

When Duckweed will come back, we will know what was the trick up his sleeve.

 

[Habitus]

Yeah. Without BUFFY MOD, I was so much in the dark.
My micro was terribly bad (but not as much as taking the whole army and pitch them onto the enemy )...I should try for the same mod as Duckweed (forgot the name).
Seriously, I forgot how the original interface was annoying...still, perhaps this could a method to practice grand strat. instead being obsessed with micro.

========================================================

When Duckweed will come back, we will know what was the trick up his sleeve.

Had to go back, and check but no BUG in custom assets so you were using the normal UI which I can barely use anymore Be interesting to know if Duckweed did anything to combat peacevasselling (iirc he could declare on, or bribe Shaka to war, demand/beg for peace treaty, have a high power rating from units surviving as Shaka makes some sort of war check to see if takes the vassel). Now I may have to code dig to remember, or hunt from threads/guides here to see if i remembered peacevasselling correctly

 

[MarigoldRan]

@Duckweed

I tried your save and Mao peacevassalled to shaka when it took bejing.

Taking on an AI with engineering with just praets + cats is not a wise move. You may have managed it, but you got lucky on several levels, 1st being that Mao didn't have many units, second being that he didn't peacevassal to shaka ( who certainly did have lots of units ).

As for the earlier praet rush, it was 775BC, that's a little too close to longbows for my taste. Alex was certainly in the position to get them early with double gems in his capitol. At such a late date you might as well have gone for a 500 BC construction + Praet rush.

So far none of this has really proved praetorians are a top unit on deity. Like I have always said, they are a decent unit that gives you a slight advantage, but in no way are they amazing or overpowered. What duckweed did could have been done with elephants + cats.

Yes. Duckweed could have done it with ele-pult too., though much less efficiently since elephants cost a bit more.

That is, if he had ivory.

My point has always been that if ele-pult works, so does praets. Except that you can also do it without the catapults, pre-Maces and Engineering. In other words, an ele-pult except without elephants or catapults. I.e. a praet rush.

And since iron is much more common than ivory....

Yes, I am for more tests.

 

[sossos]

Here is another way to the victory: "5 cities by turn 60+ HA rush to get the iron. It's also workable. After iron is under control, the parepult rush will start from turn 110. The biggest threat in my session is Shaka, so the plan is to get some tech from Greece then to stab Mongol and to suppress Shaka.

 

[Manco Capac]

Here is another way to the victory: "5 cities by turn 60+ HA rush to get the iron. It's also workable. After iron is under control, the parepult rush will start from turn 110. The biggest threat in my session is Shaka, so the plan is to get some tech from Greece then to rush Mongol and Shaka.

Spoiler :

Interesting as Charlie always get his a** kicked at the profit of Shaka while my session deviated from its original course when I started to kick the a** of Genghis.

Without Alex and soon gone Genghis, Shaka's gonna be isolated, then it might explain why he's weaker in my game.

I hope it will turn out nicely as Shaka is a bit far away and strong.

 

[sossos]

Spoiler :

Interesting as Charlie always get his a** kicked at the profit of Shaka while my session deviated from its original course when I started to kick the a** of Genghis.

Without Alex and soon gone Genghis, Shaka's gonna be isolated, then it might explain why he's weaker in my game.

I hope it will turn out nicely as Shaka is a bit far away and strong.

Yes, it is difficult to keep Shaka and Charlie balanced. In the firtst 100 turns, Charlie is always No. 1. Gengis just lost cities when attacking him. This makes me to cancel the open border with Charlie and help Gengis a lot.
After Mao and Shaka get in the war against Charlie, it changes so fast.
It might be better to help Charlie at the beginning. It's better to let him be the master instead of Shaka.

The key to this map is to attack Genghis as early as possible. Alex is only interested in tech, so he can be attacked at anytime. Any civ with early uu can help in this map. Praet is powerful but a bit late. If Tachy can rush with Egypt or Persian, the result could be better.

After playing this map, I think IW is still a stable strategy for Rome if they can rush for the iron. It can let Rome influence the world as early as possible.

 

[Mylene]

I've played on here, things can always go wrong with these neighbours
But it's def. a strong position now.

Spoiler :

Alex didn't capitulate with just 1 city left, and i didn't risk peace vassal + made peace. Athens will be strong enough to fend off cultural pressure, and a good GP farm.
Iam building my new Palace in Corinth, strong commerce city.
I wish i got the marble, but Genghis beat me and had a settler there quicker

No Praets, no hoping for low units in protective AIs cities with longbows and x-bows, only HAs + ~4 Cats + some diplo to keep Shaka/Genghis out.

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