Let's talk about Kongo, Let's talk about Songhai

[Cyon]

Well said Tinker. There is valid reasons for having her lead Kongo and valid reasons for leading separate civ Ndongo (or Angola, I was wrong the name is Portuguese version of King title Ngola and not so unrelated to the medevail Kingdom as I thought but their border where not as straight as today's... ).

Biggest reason to have her as a separate leader for Kongo civ instead of leading her own civ is that while she is one of the most interesting leaders in pre colonial Africa, Ndongo is not as important in itself compared to Ashanti or Ethiopia or Kilwa, and to culturally and geographically close/similar to Kongo to warrant separate inclusion (if we don't get like 15 new African Civs)

 

[Morningcalm]

The valid reason for her leading Ndongo is that she actually led it. The valid reason for her leading Kongo doesn't exist, because she never led the Kongo. It's that simple.

Nzinga was at one point allied with the Kongo, but that doesn't mean she ruled it. Just as Queen Seondeok leading Korea allied with the Tang dynasty of China doesn't mean she ruled the Tang dynasty of China.

 

[Cyon]

Kimbundu langue is closely related to Kikongo language. (both Bantu sub class H.)

Kongo's inclusion is due not only to the importance, land area an population of the core Kongo Kingdom but also of the vassal States that share history and culture. A lot like how England is in largely thanks to its rule of Wales Scotland and N. Irland.

I don't think it would have been absurd to have Mary Queen of Scotts as leader of England if she was the most interesting from that area.

She did lead the second and third most important Kingdoms of the greater Kongo area.

But I'm not against Ana Nzinga leading Ndongo/Angola, but I rather have her co-lead Kongo than not be in the game.

Please come work suggestions for a medieval themed Ndongo civ clearly different from Kongo.

The only things that come to mind for me would be a modern themed Angola civ with bonus from oil. And maybe some Che Guevara freedom fighters. Lead by Nzinga . Could be interesting but I prefer a earlier historical focus.

 

[bookman_]

For other African Civs, I think the Ashanti (sometimes spelled Asante) kingom is one of the most obvious choices - considering many of the temples and buildings survives today.

The Ashanti are also known for having unkillable pikemen, specialists in amphibious attacks after centuries of having to go through a lake.

 

[Morningcalm]

Kimbundu langue is closely related to Kikongo language. (both Bantu sub class H.)

Kongo's inclusion is due not only to the importance, land area an population of the core Kongo Kingdom but also of the vassal States that share history and culture. A lot like how England is in largely thanks to its rule of Wales Scotland and N. Irland.

I don't think it would have been absurd to have Mary Queen of Scotts as leader of England if she was the most interesting from that area.

She did lead the second and third most important Kingdoms of the greater Kongo area.

But I'm not against Ana Nzinga leading Ndongo/Angola, but I rather have her co-lead Kongo than not be in the game.

Please come work suggestions for a medieval themed Ndongo civ clearly different from Kongo.

Again, the analogy doesn't work because Mary Queen of Scots *could well* have become the leader of England historically. Anna Nzinga had no such chance as Ndongo was a different political entity from the Kingdom of Kongo entire. A more apt analogy could be the difference between the Kingdom of Silla and the Kingdom of Baekje in the Three Kingdoms period of Korea--they were neighbors, rivals, sometimes allies, sometimes not. Scotland and England at the time of Mary were relatively speaking more united, such that the seeds were sown to have James I lead England following Elizabeth I (James I was Scottish).

I'm sure Ndongo would have much to offer that is different from Kongo, so there's that.

I'm a bit worried they won't represent Anna Nzinga in Civ VI but we can maintain hope that they'll see the light.

Though to be honest, I'm far more optimistic that Mansa Musa of Mali will enter the game, and perhaps Haile Selassie of Ethiopia again.

 

[Cyon]

Mansa Musa would be awesome!

Haile Selassie was not that colorful character in civ V (but most leaders weren't), I hope they portrait him in a more interesting way this time.

Regarding Nzinga, is it really so far fetched that She could have gained the Kongolese crown through conqest, scheming or marriage?

 

[labrynianrebel]

Kongo is kind of civs most of the people don't know about. Developers could take any piece of their history and transform it into ability (the same as Songhai were made). When I heard about the Kongo unique unit I imagined the dialogue in Firaxis office:

Was Swahili even spoken in Kongo? I always thought it was a lingua franca on the East Coast of Africa

 

[Xen]

Regarding Nzinga, is it really so far fetched that She could have gained the Kongolese crown through conqest, scheming or marriage?

Its very plausible, BUT it didn't happen, so far as we understand. (and this seems to be understood well.)

So I don't think a 'could be' is sound enough for it.

BUT She is a major part of the history and identity of modern Angola- I think she should be used as a leader for them, a civ which exists as a country only in modern times, but built upon a long heritage of constituent peoples that now make it.

 

[MadDjinn]

Was Swahili even spoken in Kongo? I always thought it was a lingua franca on the East Coast of Africa

it's part of the bantu family of languages, just like the ones spoken in kongo.

not sure 'how close' they are in written form though.

 

[Loaf Warden]

Ndongo and Matemba are as Kongolese as Sparta and Macedonia are Greek - in their sphere of influence.

Sparta and Macedonia were not in the sphere of influence of the Greeks. They were Greeks, period. "The Greeks" did not constitute a single political entity in Classical times. The Greek civ in this series has always represented just that; the Greek civilization. It's an amalgamation of all the Greeks. Hence why they can use an Athenian and a Spartan as the leaders of this one, after having used a Macedonian for so long; Pericles, Gorgo, and Alexander were not from the same political entity, but they were all Greeks. If the civ were called Athens, then Gorgo would not be a valid choice in any sense.

I'm a bit worried they won't represent Anna Nzinga in Civ VI but we can maintain hope that they'll see the light.

Ana Nzinga is in Civ VI. She's a Great General. She grants you an additional envoy.

http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ6_units.html#great_people

 

[Siptah]

My thoughts on Kongo gameplay:
I think the Ngao Mbeba UU might be nothing special, just a swordsman replacement that doesn't need iron.
For Afonso's ULA I guess something diplomatic/science related. A declaration of friendship, trade agreements and maybe other things like open borders give you a science boost (overall or just for technologies the other civs already has). Along with that idea came the thought for the agenda that he wants to be friends and trade partners with advanced nations (and maybe getting 'presents' from them).
For a Kongo civ UA, I don't have a concrete idea. Maybe something to do with rainforests? A unique improvement seems rather odd. Maybe just a flat bonus from rainforests and a fixed rainforest starting position? Maybe for Kongo the appeal of rainforest tiles is much better or there is a small housing for rainforest tiles?

 

[member66170]

Nor does Sparta eventually succumbing to Athens mean that Gorgo's leading Greece in the game is somehow similar.

Not exactly on topic, but Sparta eventually beat Athens, not the other way around

 

[Liufeng]

Well, I believe the sole fact that an african civ (and God knows how many deserve it) is "playable" is enough to make it more known, having good abilities or not. However, it does not come into their advantage if their abilities are sub-par in comparison with other more known civs. Ashanti, Ethiopia, Swahili (I know they were not a united kingdom, but why not merge into one swahili civ with Zanzibar or Kilwa as their capital, like Greece ?), Mali, Morocco, Madagascar, Mutapa (or Zimbabwe, with Great Zimbabwe as capital), etc. are all deserving cvs I wish they'll be playable in the future.

About Ana Nzinga and Afonso, the latter remains, like it or not, the best choice to lead Kongo. He modernized his kingdom with portuguese culture and technology, and that alone is a far better feat than Shaka Zulu's stubborn resistance. Sure, portuguese slavery trade was truly pandemic, but the man tried to fight it as much as it could.
Ana Nzinga was certainly a great warrior queen, but let's face it : she did not ruled Kongo, never did, and even fought against it many times. Those defending that it's not a problem for that inaccuracy are truly hypocrits if they complain about Catherine de Medici, Gorgo or any other leader, because they can't accept a less known ruler from a kingdom but have no problem with someone who was no ruler at all of the civ in question. And you know why it doesn't bother ? Because of the problem this thread has put the finger on : it's an african civ !
People cannot accept a largely known worldwide civ has a minor ruler, because after all, it's England/USA/France/China or whatever. But since it's an african civ, almost unknown to everyone, people can just say "no big deal, it's not known anyway". Africa has much to offer, but let's not start making bad shortcuts for the sake of looking more "badass". I guess you would mind if Charles the bold led France. So do I. But why, aside the reason I gave, is Nzinga acceptable then ?

 

[Ikael]

As a history lover, it always bugged me that whboen people talked about "black history" they always meant "African American history". Africa has always been full with fully flegded, complex, fascinant civilizations that would make for great civ additions and whose historical relevance far outweights the Zulu.

As for ideas for them:

- Mali: Commercial focused civ with a penchant for powerful trade routes and mines
- Kongo: Errrrr, slave focused civ :S alternatively, they can focus in their raffia mills and strong religious institutions
- Ashanti: Cosmopolitan civ with easy to modernize units and advantages for going wide and peaceful assimilation
- Igbo: Tech focused civ ideal for tall players, very similar to the hellenistic leage (a people of entrepeneurs and democratic politicians)
- Etiopia: : Faith and wonder bonus ahoy. One of the most rich, "interpretable" civs of the African continent me thinks
- Nigeria: A modern African powerhouse, with focus on popullation growth and strategic resources
- Shongai: War like civ with extra fighting bonuses in rivers
- Zulu: A footnote in history, and not a very great one at that
- Ife: An almost mythical, very unknown city state that latter gave birth to the whole widespread Yoruba culture
- Moors: North African civs are still African, and the moors have a cool history to draw from (desert adaptation and warfare, trade route control, etc)

 

[sukritact]

it's part of the bantu family of languages, just like the ones spoken in kongo.

not sure 'how close' they are in written form though.

English is part of the Germanic family of languages. It doesn't really make it much better. It'd be like having Bismark/Barbarossa use Swedish/English. I hope they actually use Kikongo for the leader dialogue.

 

[Mudokon Pop]

The Ashanti are also known for having unkillable pikemen, specialists in amphibious attacks after centuries of having to go through a lake.

I did not know this - I once attempted an Ashanti mod for Civ4 - maybe I'll try one for Civ6 if it's user-friendly to mod. So I may have a Unique Unit choice.

 

[MadDjinn]

English is part of the Germanic family of languages. It doesn't really make it much better. It'd be like having Bismark/Barbarossa use Swedish/English. I hope they actually use Kikongo for the leader dialogue.

written form...

yes, english and german are similar and many words are the same or derivatives of written form words.

though, french and english share far more words than english and german, so that's be a better comparison.

My point, again written form, is that some words could be similar between the two and therefore the name of the UU, which some people here say is Swahilli, could be similar to the Kikongo words for the same. I don't know either, but just saying that's something to think about.

Now, as per dialogue... yes, that'd better be in KiKongo.

 

[shyPiano]

My point, again written form, is that some words could be similar between the two and therefore the name of the UU, which some people here say is Swahilli, could be similar to the Kikongo words for the same. I don't know either, but just saying that's something to think about.

Not in any online dictionary I could find.

Here's an example of one.
This one has an advantage that it also explains briefly how words are formed. Ngao Mbeba doesn't even seem to be valid words in Kikongo, though I might just be misunderstanding it. Ngao is "shield", but in Kikongo the prefix N- is for words that describe human beings. The example they give, Nkentó, means "woman". Then we have Mbeba, "bearer" (which is probably the word that would describe a human being), doesn't seem to respect any kind of prefix shown there.

But maybe that's the fault of that dictionary - there's no word there for "shield", and the only words I could find related to "to bear" were kusimbá ("to hold"), kuvanda na ("to have") and kele na (also "to have").

This dictionary, though, does have the word for shield: Nkakidiswa (why does it have the N- prefix, I have no idea)

Here's a third dictionary, just for good measure. Here I was actually able to find the word Mbebe, meaning "something entrusted which must recieve an anxious care; if lost, serious consequences would result, a great responsibility."
Seems to fit, somewhat. Other dictionaries also seem to have this word, I just didn't find it until now.

So yeah - I don't claim to know Kikongo based of this quick research, but so far I feel the name Ngao Mbeba doesn't really mean anything in the language. Shield would be Nkakidiswa, and I guess Bearer would be some variant of Mbebe.

 

[sukritact]

written form...

So Teddy's UU can be called ein rau Reiter (don't bother with French, Rough and Rider are both Germanic words)? Same language group doesn't even mean legibility unfortunately.

Besides which I'm unsure the Swahili is even correct. Swahili compound words in reverse order to English (so fireman would be manfire for example), since the first letters of the word generally dictate the noun class (m/mw- marks humans in the singular). for example:

Mwanaakiologia/Archaeologist = mwana (child) + akiologia (archeology)
Amshakikemilkali/Chemical Stimulation = amsha (stimulate) + kemikali (chemical)
Kimeleategemezi/Hyperparasite = kimelea (parasite) + tegemea (depend(ent))

So even in Swahili they seem to have gotten it wrong. It'd probably be something like:

Mbebangao = Mbebe (bearer) + Ngao (shield) (which would at least keep the m- human noun class)

though, french and english share far more words than english and german, so that's be a better comparison.

Mainly this is true for higher register words. Shakespeare's "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" is still closer to modern Swedish "Varför är du Romeo?" than French "Pourquoi es-tu Romeo?". Shield and Bearer are also both Germanic words for example.

 

[VermelhoRed]

Yeah, the concept behind the unit was well-thought out but Firaxis did kick the ball out with the name... let's hope they see this thread and patch it to something more fitting before the release!