budweiser
King of the Beers
I am inspired to play a 'Liberty' science victory on diety. Who shall I chosen?
Liberty is very hard...
- Thread starter Tyrus
- Start date
adwacta why dont u post some t200+- deity win or try some gotm?
because walking the walk is better as talking.
Espacially when talking nonsense.
Also its been proven for 3 years now that tradition is better as liberty, there is 0 point in doing a discussion which has been done 100 times before.
The lib/tradition I brought into play CAN work too. But without poland or some culture huts the free settler comes allready a bit late - later as i d like get my cities up.
Tradition finisher and monarchy are just too strong - aiming for a size 40 cap thats 20 happynes and 40g/t - most op sp in game - maybe together with 2nd in order
because walking the walk is better as talking.
Espacially when talking nonsense.
Also its been proven for 3 years now that tradition is better as liberty, there is 0 point in doing a discussion which has been done 100 times before.
The lib/tradition I brought into play CAN work too. But without poland or some culture huts the free settler comes allready a bit late - later as i d like get my cities up.
Tradition finisher and monarchy are just too strong - aiming for a size 40 cap thats 20 happynes and 40g/t - most op sp in game - maybe together with 2nd in order
adwcta
King
Cro, it's a fair point about the risk. I'm saying that under your initial assumptions about things already working out for Liberty to that extent (that you've got everything set up). At THAT point, liberty is safer than Tradition. The difficulty is mostly in setting that whole thing up.
How do I "submit" a game? I don't have one saved handy (my previous liberty-science game I started out cornered with barely enough room for 4 cities, and had no mountains on top of that, and I had to divert resources to take over my neighbor, which set me back ~20 turns, but I did finish turn 270, so had I the 8-city setup done, I think 250 would have been a reasonable time for that game), but I can go roll one up where I'm not cornered, and have a mountain somewhere nearby for my second city to go play one and show you. I'll try to get an "average" start instead of what I usually do, which is to play literally every start.
I assume I can't use a science civ, or Poland... so, Austria? Shoshone?
tommy, my name is not adwacta, and I can't win in under 200 turns playing peaceful, period, with any victory condition, starting any policy tree. I also never said I could do that, so I'm not going to walk YOUR walk. I'm not sure how many people CAN do that in BNW, and if so, I'm going to bet it's only with amazing starts as a science civ. Again, I find turn times and god-starts pointless. It's even worse than people doing speed runs through Super Mario... at least there they don't give themselves god-starts and use Poland/Babs/Korea/Maya.
also tommy, anything that's been proven for 3 years means it needs a little updating. I'd like to see you prove something in vanilla that's applicable to BNW. Come on now, why don't you walk the walk before telling me there's no point in this discussion with 10-pages of evidenced interest in this topic?
How do I "submit" a game? I don't have one saved handy (my previous liberty-science game I started out cornered with barely enough room for 4 cities, and had no mountains on top of that, and I had to divert resources to take over my neighbor, which set me back ~20 turns, but I did finish turn 270, so had I the 8-city setup done, I think 250 would have been a reasonable time for that game), but I can go roll one up where I'm not cornered, and have a mountain somewhere nearby for my second city to go play one and show you. I'll try to get an "average" start instead of what I usually do, which is to play literally every start.
I assume I can't use a science civ, or Poland... so, Austria? Shoshone?
tommy, my name is not adwacta, and I can't win in under 200 turns playing peaceful, period, with any victory condition, starting any policy tree. I also never said I could do that, so I'm not going to walk YOUR walk. I'm not sure how many people CAN do that in BNW, and if so, I'm going to bet it's only with amazing starts as a science civ. Again, I find turn times and god-starts pointless. It's even worse than people doing speed runs through Super Mario... at least there they don't give themselves god-starts and use Poland/Babs/Korea/Maya.
also tommy, anything that's been proven for 3 years means it needs a little updating. I'd like to see you prove something in vanilla that's applicable to BNW. Come on now, why don't you walk the walk before telling me there's no point in this discussion with 10-pages of evidenced interest in this topic?
Securion
Civ Veteran
"Liberty is fine!"
Thugmcgee
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2014
- Messages
- 4
Can't go wrong with Rome
just parcitipate in some gotm and do well, i do it pretty regularly
and liberty vs tradition isnt about "tall" vs "wide" but just about better policies in Tradition.
Free worker??? when CS offer them too? Free dude finisher which isnt even free but inceases costs of next? 1 Prod per city?
Every single policy apart the free settler is bad. Maybe the ga/red sp cost is ok too.
GhostSalsa
Emperor
You can go insanely wrong with Rome trying liberty/wide, especially if liberty isn't your normal open.
Rome's UA is a bomb strapped to the "more chances to make wrong choices, wrong choices generate the need for even more choices that can go wrong" problem of wide play. If you do something wrong and can't build or rush-buy a building in your capital before your other cities need to build it, you don't have a UA. This happens so many times when you play Rome wide.
You unlock markets: the capital needs to finish guilds, NWs, wonders, units, it is not going to be building a market 2 more eras. Great so your flat cities are taking 15 turns to finish markets just like with any other civ playing wide.
If it's not happening, you're probably rush-buying buildings in the capital, you're probably high in gpt all game, which means you're probably playing Tradition, 5 cities or less.
Plus they don't have a UB! Why would you play them wide over civs with UBs.
Plus their UUs are during a time when conquest is completely without benefit! They essentially only have the UA and the UA suffers with wide.
By the time a wide empire has "stabilized" so that gpt is high, you either have or are about to have factories, and 25% isn't 25% anymore since it's only on base - and if 25% in satellites was a big deal, Railroads would be considered an essential tech, but it's usually ignored in optimum play.
GhostSalsa
Emperor
If you want a good sturdy civ for wide play just play the Celts. Being able to build monument faster (instead of shrine) gets you your free settler faster while still allowing you to pump out units so you also get maximum available ruins. This all amounts to about an 8 turn head-start, plus you get 3 happiness per city later.
Or if you want a OP civ for wide go Shoshone, obviously.
Or if you want a OP civ for wide go Shoshone, obviously.
budweiser
King of the Beers
I played a 3 city liberty diety game as Korea into the 270s or 280s. I had the tech tree finished and was ahead by 5 techs. Biggest problem was tile expansion. I might try it again when I get time. It seems like you could match tradition's finish time.
Memoryjar
Emperor
I did it with Gandhi. Or exactly, I failed with Gandhi from 3 turns (cause I build a 6th city that I shouldn't have). I badly manage my culture, so William win a CV very fast (T290).
Stacked_Deck
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2013
- Messages
- 92
Plus the legions works best for a tall civ'. If you use them to build roads to where you conquer you're wasting an incredible amount of time. If you're relatively peaceful you can use them to connect your four cities while being a defensive force, freeing up your fewer and slower workers to do other things. Of course teching to iron working is another thing entirely.
adwcta
King
Or... Use them to connect your much wider civ so they work on more than 3 roads? You know, so that they are MORE useful.
Stacked_Deck
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2013
- Messages
- 92
Well I'd love to see how you're generating enough happiness to be "much wider" at that point in the game compared to a Tradition Rome planning to expand to 5 or 6, so that there's actually significantly more road connecting your closer cities. 3 satellite cities 6 tiles apart means 54 turns of worker timed saved, that's significant.
adwcta
King
2 mercantile CSs. 10 happiness each, 16 min. Colosseums and circuses priority, +5 for national wonder. You start with 7 and a bonus lux resource (the one that's everywhere around you), so that's 32 happiness at city cost of 2 base, once reduced by Colosseums, not counting luxuries. Assume one unique lux per 2 cities, that's your per city cost right there, with an extra 2 pop per due to religion and liberty. So, you have 32 extra pop to distribute (plus 2 per circus) beyond 2 pop per city. That's more than enough for medieval / classical.
So, the real answer is... As many as you have room for, at an approx clip of 1 every 10-12 turns after liberty's free settler.
Happiness is not the problem. Space and science are your problems. Still, you can expand to 8-10 without being too hurt by those.
So, the real answer is... As many as you have room for, at an approx clip of 1 every 10-12 turns after liberty's free settler.
Happiness is not the problem. Space and science are your problems. Still, you can expand to 8-10 without being too hurt by those.
budweiser
King of the Beers
A new playstyle is being invented in this thread but its not quite what you guys think. I wish I wasnt stuck at work.
Hint: multiple cities in the same foot print as tradition.
Hint: multiple cities in the same foot print as tradition.
hai 1
Chief
Quick question: do citizenship and the Pyramids also improve the rate at which legions build roads?
Anyway, people might have less of an issue with liberty if they do away with the misconception that tradition=tall, and liberty=wide. This mixes the viability of tall vs wide in with your comparison of tradition vs liberty. IMO, liberty is not properly balanced to support a wide empire (note that I do wish it was...). The extra one hammer, one culture, and one happiness per city do sort of point to a wide empire, but really they are almost negligible (when you are talking about the difference between 4-5 and 6-8 cities). What liberty offers is a fast and safe setup, insanely strong pillage healing if you manage to nab pyramids, and a timely great person. Were it not for the blatant overpowered-ness of Monarchy and the Tradition finisher, the two trees would be balanced (with each other, both are way better than the other opening trees).
Also, I feel like I bring it up all the time, but a hybrid left-side of liberty/full tradition (open tradition first, rush collective rule in liberty, then fill out tradition) build works really well if you grab The Oracle. It is no secret that Poland rocks the hybrid opening, but this route works for pretty much anyone. You get the fast, safe set-up of liberty, free culture buildings (albeit a bit late, though this can be advantageous if you decide to play it for free amphis. This can be especially nice on a civ like the celts so that you are one step closer to their UB. On most civs though I like to build a monument in my cap only, and the monuments really aren't delayed that much in my expos anyway while their early build order still gets freed up substantially. Also, keep in mind that while the monuments are delayed you still are getting the +1 culture from the liberty opener), and eventually all the benefits of tradition. The only problem is getting them a bit later, but Monarchy shines more and more as the game goes on, and you will have the tree long closed before industrial to purchase great engineers with faith. Sure, the growth benefits getting delayed is a bummer, but you can really explode once you get them (you might not have been able to take full advantage of getting them earlier anyway, depending on your happiness levels).... Try it! Then segue right into Rationalism on time
Anyway, people might have less of an issue with liberty if they do away with the misconception that tradition=tall, and liberty=wide. This mixes the viability of tall vs wide in with your comparison of tradition vs liberty. IMO, liberty is not properly balanced to support a wide empire (note that I do wish it was...). The extra one hammer, one culture, and one happiness per city do sort of point to a wide empire, but really they are almost negligible (when you are talking about the difference between 4-5 and 6-8 cities). What liberty offers is a fast and safe setup, insanely strong pillage healing if you manage to nab pyramids, and a timely great person. Were it not for the blatant overpowered-ness of Monarchy and the Tradition finisher, the two trees would be balanced (with each other, both are way better than the other opening trees).
Also, I feel like I bring it up all the time, but a hybrid left-side of liberty/full tradition (open tradition first, rush collective rule in liberty, then fill out tradition) build works really well if you grab The Oracle. It is no secret that Poland rocks the hybrid opening, but this route works for pretty much anyone. You get the fast, safe set-up of liberty, free culture buildings (albeit a bit late, though this can be advantageous if you decide to play it for free amphis. This can be especially nice on a civ like the celts so that you are one step closer to their UB. On most civs though I like to build a monument in my cap only, and the monuments really aren't delayed that much in my expos anyway while their early build order still gets freed up substantially. Also, keep in mind that while the monuments are delayed you still are getting the +1 culture from the liberty opener), and eventually all the benefits of tradition. The only problem is getting them a bit later, but Monarchy shines more and more as the game goes on, and you will have the tree long closed before industrial to purchase great engineers with faith. Sure, the growth benefits getting delayed is a bummer, but you can really explode once you get them (you might not have been able to take full advantage of getting them earlier anyway, depending on your happiness levels).... Try it! Then segue right into Rationalism on time
adwcta
King
budweiser
King of the Beers
Quick question: do citizenship and the Pyramids also improve the rate at which legions build roads?
Also, I feel like I bring it up all the time, but a hybrid left-side of liberty/full tradition (open tradition first, rush collective rule in liberty, then fill out tradition) build works really well if you grab The Oracle. It is no secret that Poland rocks the hybrid opening, but this route works for pretty much anyone. You get the fast, safe set-up of liberty, free culture buildings (albeit a bit late, though this can be advantageous if you decide to play it for free amphis. This can be especially nice on a civ like the celts so that you are one step closer to their UB. On most civs though I like to build a monument in my cap only, and the monuments really aren't delayed that much in my expos anyway while their early build order still gets freed up substantially. Also, keep in mind that while the monuments are delayed you still are getting the +1 culture from the liberty opener), and eventually all the benefits of tradition. The only problem is getting them a bit later, but Monarchy shines more and more as the game goes on, and you will have the tree long closed before industrial to purchase great engineers with faith. Sure, the growth benefits getting delayed is a bummer, but you can really explode once you get them (you might not have been able to take full advantage of getting them earlier anyway, depending on your happiness levels).... Try it! Then segue right into Rationalism on time
Not so fast, in this thread we are still pretending that its best to finish one tree first before you start on another one.
blah instead of adopting liberty, just go with tradition and in extreme cases where it's do-or-die since you only have one good expanding spot, build 4 extra scouts to block enemy settlers... no point getting -33% SP penalty cost if you are only going to build 3 or 4 cities...
If they settle t25-ish liberty's free settler ain't gonna kick in in time to settle the spot the AI wants anyway unless you found culture ruins, and if it's later around 30-40-ish then you should have enough scouts to block/DoW.
I proposed liberty/tradition mix the day when bnw came out. But as written before u kind of really need a early culture ruin to make things work well. Otherwise the Free settler comes just too late.
Also i d like hear 1 good argument why settling more as 5 cities on your own should be better as investing the huge amounts of hammer into building the additional settlers/happynes buildings into units and just taking ai cities/capitals where u get free buildings/gold/workers/additional lux same time.
Is it really so hard to think outside this little sandbox?
