This exactly. Right now an ancient era policy is on par in power with modern era wonders (SoL and Cristo).
Liberty specialist bug
- Thread starter Ahriman
- Start date
This exactly. Right now an ancient era policy is on par in power with modern era wonders (SoL and Cristo).
mitsho
Deity
It's a difficult question as Specialists imho should be viable for tall and wide empires. But the +2 
does seem overpowered. The idea right now is that tall empires use specialists for Great People Generation, while wide empires (use Religion for that purpose?) use specialists to achieve base yields in underdeveloped (because new) cities. As the coding takes too long of the original idea, what about alternative work-arounds like
1. A Dummy building that counts the active specialists and gives you production on the building equal to 1. Probably not codeable and also the AI will not understand it.
2. An Instant Great-People-Points boost (say 50% of what's needed for next specialist) in your first 3 (5) cities so that you got a headstart to generate them?
3. A Dummy building that gives you 1 free slots for all specialists. That way you can instantly have any specialist in a new found city. Does seem like a weak wide buff to me. Up the specialists to the early yield again. It'd also not be a big problem for the AI to understand as it already does count the available specialists (though it might cripple them if it immediately puts citizens in the slots and stops growing?)
I like the last one the best
does seem overpowered. The idea right now is that tall empires use specialists for Great People Generation, while wide empires (use Religion for that purpose?) use specialists to achieve base yields in underdeveloped (because new) cities. As the coding takes too long of the original idea, what about alternative work-arounds like1. A Dummy building that counts the active specialists and gives you production on the building equal to 1
. Probably not codeable and also the AI will not understand it.2. An Instant Great-People-Points boost (say 50% of what's needed for next specialist) in your first 3 (5) cities so that you got a headstart to generate them?
3. A Dummy building that gives you 1 free slots for all specialists. That way you can instantly have any specialist in a new found city. Does seem like a weak wide buff to me. Up the specialists to the early yield again. It'd also not be a big problem for the AI to understand as it already does count the available specialists (though it might cripple them if it immediately puts citizens in the slots and stops growing?)
I like the last one the best
The science is worth way more than the gold imo, I don't have any balance issues with villages in the early game.
But if Thal's assessment is correct, that 4 hammer mines are OP, then how would specialists that provide 5 hammers and 2 GP points be balanced?...just because they are more universal?
Fusilliban
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2011
- Messages
- 41
If mines are the problem, why is there a bonus on Iron Working?
Sssshh...
I believe this was because mines are nerfed initially and iron working brings them back up to "normal".
From my last couple test games, I don't use specialists when I run out of slots or have some super productive tiles (usually a resource), or need more food.
Otherwise, new population is always engineers/scientists/artists/merchants (in that rough order). Wide or tall. This was not at all what the intent of the policy was for.
Otherwise, new population is always engineers/scientists/artists/merchants (in that rough order). Wide or tall. This was not at all what the intent of the policy was for.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Right. It makes specialists better than working tiles. Which is game breaking.
It also makes it rather difficult to evaluate the economy of the game - such as whether unit maintenance costs are still too high or not.
It also makes it rather difficult to evaluate the economy of the game - such as whether unit maintenance costs are still too high or not.
I also don't see how if the problem was mines that it is addressed with super-duper engineers from a social policy.
It would seem like engineers should offer some production to compensate for a hill-poor environment, much as merchants offer some gold in a non-river/non coastal one, rather than be the favored alternative to using mines at all. I don't see a problem with a city that has 4-5 specialists in the abstract in a wide-empire, as I do that often for GP generation or to provide money/production/science when needed. But I do see a problem if that's what you're doing instead of working most tiles in every city and instead of using villages and mines you use farms on everything.
It would seem like engineers should offer some production to compensate for a hill-poor environment, much as merchants offer some gold in a non-river/non coastal one, rather than be the favored alternative to using mines at all. I don't see a problem with a city that has 4-5 specialists in the abstract in a wide-empire, as I do that often for GP generation or to provide money/production/science when needed. But I do see a problem if that's what you're doing instead of working most tiles in every city and instead of using villages and mines you use farms on everything.
I can say having played several wide and tall games I use specialists regularly in all of them, especially in the mid to late game, and the liberty finisher is a big part of that. I personally do think the specialist bonus is OP the way as written.
Currently it makes no sense to finish tradition before liberty as a tall empire, the bonus is too strong no matter if you go wide or tall.
Put another way, maybe the bonus actually helps wide empires more than tall, but this doesn't matter to tall empires since it is still the strongest bonus available at that point of the game.
Put another way, maybe the bonus actually helps wide empires more than tall, but this doesn't matter to tall empires since it is still the strongest bonus available at that point of the game.
