Liberty vs Honour - random match day

Liberty is better for a wide game.
Usually when going domination and you have 10-20+ cities easily, it is nice.

It's also good in MP where you cannot trade to the AI for gold, meaning it often takes much longer to get settlers out than with Liberty.

I actually love going both, but it's usually less ideal to use so many policies up in those two instead of picking Rationalism/Order, etc. to help with things later.
 
No, it's not 'or', it's 'and'; two games will be played, both taking the same start save.

keep in mind the 2nd play thru will be with map and civ knowledge. you may want to either look at the map in WorldBuilder or breeze thru a quick 150 turns just to see what you facing before giving it an earnest go with both efforts. It will help to make it a fairer comparison.

Im interested in what maps/civs you pose to the forums. Should be a fun decision-making process at least.
 
I generated some starts, rejecting ones that were coastal:
Spoiler :

Theo1c_zps5c426b0b.jpg:original


Theo2c_zps13c8d818.jpg:original


Theo3c_zps1425331e.jpg:original


Theo4c_zpsd221025d.jpg:original
Which one shall I go with? The reason I let you pick is to avoid people thinking that I'm rigging things and picked a very specific start. When I'm home from work (I still need to start my shift) I'll see if a start is in the lead and then that'll be the one. If Theodora is alone on an island I'll quit that game and go for one of the other saves.

@Hammer Rabbi; I haven't looked at the wider maps and I'm not planning to do that. Someone else would probably play the games in succession, but I prefer trying to play them simultaneously. I think if I would watch a race at the Olympic games or so I would also prefer seeing the runners at the same time instead of one after the other.
Also I lose some of my interest in a civ game once I know the map. Exploration is a big part of the fun for me.

I will upload saves. I'm a bit pushed for time now, but I wanted at least these starts up for you to pick one from, so I stand a good chance to actually make a start playing in the weekend.
People are very welcome to play along, in fact I think it would be a good idea if people would take sets at some stage. I'm very unlikely to find the time to do this on my own. If it's just me I think I would do well to reach turn 100 or so, or it would last forever.
If people play along, please NO SPOILERS! Not even in spoiler tags.
 
There's this russian civ site (civru.com) i stumbled upon a while ago. They have a friendly role-playing mode called 'sausage' (lol). Basically, a person downloads a save and plays it out for (say) 20 turns. Then he uploads it back with report on what has been done during his reign. Then next one downloads it and so on. So, after reading that you're short on time, Optional, i'm thinking, maybe you'd be interested to arrange something similar?

By the way, i really like 2nd starting location.
 
I'd say either starting location 2 or 4.

2 is actually (too) good for Honor because it has great production and growth. Honor heavily relies on a good capital. 4 might be a bit more balanced. It's not that great before you reach Civil Service but decent in early game.
Both starts have a few "religious" tiles, wine and stone. And thankfully, no OP deserts.

So I'd say 4 for the sake of a balanced comparison.
 
I'd say 3, because of the lack of religious tiles. Religion could skew your experiment (getting stone circles/god of festivals in one game, but not in the other).
 
How many turns do you plan to play in one before switching to the other?

Will you send your scouts on exactly the same paths?

Maybe you could play one game 10 turns, then the other 20, then 20 each going forward, so that the knowledge of discovery is staggered. Otherwise, one game will benefit from the knowledge gained in the other.

Also, you should keep a little log of e.g. the culture that your honor warriors generate that you didn't get in the other game. That might be somewhat evident in how many extra policies that culture gets, but only long term
 
I vote for the 2nd map. Looks like a nice start.
 
@Hammer Rabbi; I haven't looked at the wider maps and I'm not planning to do that. Someone else would probably play the games in succession, but I prefer trying to play them simultaneously. I think if I would watch a race at the Olympic games or so I would also prefer seeing the runners at the same time instead of one after the other.
Also I lose some of my interest in a civ game once I know the map. Exploration is a big part of the fun for me.

Im not sure how that will work with time constraints unless you have 2 systems to run/play it simultaneously. The tedium of trying to keep the map fresh while maintaining playing the same save twice through for an experiment gives me a headache just thinking about it, haha. I certainly enjoy the discovery process (one of my favorite things about civ honestly) but when Im trying an experiment i just deal with it for the sake of the experiment.

Good luck and have fun with this. I like 2 and 3 for start positions. Really I only dislike 1 because of tundras. The rest are all very doable.
 
There's this russian civ site (civru.com) i stumbled upon a while ago. They have a friendly role-playing mode called 'sausage' (lol). Basically, a person downloads a save and plays it out for (say) 20 turns. Then he uploads it back with report on what has been done during his reign. Then next one downloads it and so on. So, after reading that you're short on time, Optional, i'm thinking, maybe you'd be interested to arrange something similar?
A variation of Succession Games? Optional knows a thing or two about these. :) They were very popular in Civ3/4 days but never really took off with Civ5.
 
I've just asked for some help in Quick Questions & Answers; whether someone is willing to check whether the start is not alone on an island. The surroundings are eerily empty after 11 turns, with scouts going both directions still discovering ruins... I'm planning to make reports, but it's no use to start that if there's a problem with the start.
As I stated earlier; a lonely island start means I'll reject that game and go with another start!

Regarding Succession Games; I've been in a few. There's still an interest in it, also in Civ 5, but it needs to be awakened - it's just slumbering. I say that because if you open a thread and ask for people to join an SG, you have a team within a day.
Especially when there are new game elements, I like to discover them through a Succession Game. When Brave New World comes out I would be very interested in getting one going (not that there isn't one going now, there is, but I don't play in all of them).
For this game I'll see how far I get on my own. I think the concept with the two games going on simultaneously is not suitable for team play. It would be very confusing, more people than just Hammer Rabbi would get a headache!
 
Browd was kind enough to answer:
You are not alone on your landmass, but for the Liberty vs. Honor test you are trying to do, you probably want to re-roll. A few more details in the spoiler.

Spoiler :
You are on the smallest landmass with only one other AI. The other AI are all together on another continent and you will need Astronomy to get to them.
Before having looked at Browd's spoiler, I decided to go with his 'you probably want to re-roll'.

So I'm disregarding this start, but I'll still post a little report of what happened, I think I owe you that. Decisions I made here I'll probably make again, so comments you have can be helpful; I could take those with me for the next start.

When I posted the 4 starts I had to resist the urge to call names to one of them. I liked them all except one. Number 2 annoyed me; that river was probably a short one and then I like to settle either at the source or at the mouth of the river. Not inbetween and squeezing out otherwise good settling opportunities on either side. I wanted to move that settler, but then some important resources wouldn't be in the city's radius anymore. The start looked like a headache to me. But being a bit of a mind reader, I guessed you guys would pick that one, and yup, without fail you did! :lol:

Most of you would have settled on that hill, is what I'm also guessing. I like hill placement, normally I would move a settler for it, but I really didn't like the exact position of that hill on the river, but also I couldn't move much without sacrificing resources.
I ended up settling Constantinople off the hill, one tile closer to the river mouth. That gains a sheep, and more chance for a second city at the river mouth - that's in the fog, so it's guessing, but my guess was the river wasn't long.
Con1_zpsf8544823.jpg:original

For the capital itself of course next to the hill is weaker than on top of it, but both Liberty and Honour would start this way; for the test it didn't matter much where exactly I settled. I didn't split the game up in two games until turn 5, as both would start with a scout and researching Pottery. Pottery because Byzantium needs to beeline to a religion to profit from its unique ability, and with a scout I start nearly all the time.
The first warrior move was north and revealed a ruin. That turned out to be a map:
Spoiler :
MapRevealed_zps7112f464.jpg:original
A map is not the best, but better to have a map at turn 1, revealing quite a chunk of the terrain, than at turn 25, revealing one additional water tile on top of what you've already revealed yourself.
Visible is a silk just outside of the capital's radius. There are nice resources around but the exact layout is a bit annoying; Hard to say how cities should have been placed here.
Another ruin is visible in the west, but I decide to continue exploring north with the warrior, leaving the ruin to pick up for the scout.

Turn 5 I split the game. I'm thinking the Liberty game is best off with an early monument, because it means an earlier settler, the Honour game gets a second scout. This scout can protect a worker while the warrior bothers with barbs, and can be used as a garrison unit later.
Turn 6; the warrior bags a culture ruin (both games). This means the first policy can be picked. That's Tradition starter for Honour, Liberty starter for Liberty.
Turn 7; bag Animal Husbandry (both games, the scout picked up the earlier spotted ruin in the west).

But I'm beginning to wonder why I haven't met anybody yet. This is unusual. I carry on for a few more turns. The warrior finds a barb camp and Kuala Lumpur in the north. The scout, or incase of the Honour game, the scouts, explore east.
At turn 11 in both directions my scouting units are spotting ruins. Here's where I stop. No other civ has been here. I must have huge space for myself, I'm likely alone and that's not what I want for my test.
This is what I'm seeing at this moment:
Spoiler :
North:
North_zps2b099b55.jpg:original

South:
South-1_zps89ac6a7e.jpg:original

There's enough there for a strong game, even a very strong game, I think. It looks like there's acres of space with plenty of good stuff around. I like Kuala Lumpur, and the ruins were good, but it's very isolated.
When I asked for someone to have a look at the whole map, Browd's advice sealed it. I believe taking one of the other starts is better for what I'm trying to do. Some people had mentioned 3 or 4 as their favourite. I'll check, might toss a coin.

What I found easy was alternating between both games. Play Honour until the end of turn 6, save, pick up Liberty that's still at turn 5, play that until the end of turn 7, save, pick up Honour again that's still at turn 6, play until 8, save, pick up Liberty again... That's the easy part!
 
i guess if you have the patience to post a thorough write-up with pics you probably have the patience to switch between games. that's admirable. my comp is 2 years old now and pushing the limits on switching between loads too frequently. i just need to do some pc maintenance though to help with that.

my assessment of the map:
Spoiler :
i could never resist that hill spot. would have gotten my scout 1 turn earlier (after the turn to get on the hill). in hindsight with more map revealed i would have loved it even more, particularly with liberty. i would be able to take that hill/river/mtn/silk/sheep spot to the west. and the cap on the hill would have had 2 immediate wheat tiles, an earlier extra wine (it would be gotten quicker in the 2nd rung for trading/happy) and some of the desert tiles wouldnt be available til the 3rd rung. either horses would be workable so that isnt a big deal but the ivory would also be 1 rung closer so probably gotten faster but it also would have vied for priority with that extra wine.

my guess as to why you havent met anyone is just having not gone east yet. if i didnt scout at all, it's still a fifty-fifty chance for me to meet anyone by t10 with them wandering to my borders. sometimes its sub-t10 but sometimes not until t20. it just depends on who those neighbors are in my experiences.

you can do a nice string of cities north towards Kuala but i'd hope for one of them to get petra. most of the desert looks really bad for any real value (no river for growth is a decent killer for that). i'd let the AI plop down in the crappy spots and do all the hard work of getting buildings so i dont have to if i cant get petra. i think at least 1 coastal city should be a priority for exploring too. there are few decent spots for more than one if you want to go semi-coastal on this. and you have nice horses for some UUs.
 
i guess if you have the patience to post a thorough write-up with pics you probably have the patience to switch between games.
Exactly. Succession Games have even more unwieldy write-ups. I should probably curb myself, otherwise this game will go very slowly.
i could never resist that hill spot... in hindsight with more map revealed i would have loved it even more...
I could have preserved a good river spot south with what I did. In hindsight, there was a pack of horses on the exact spot that otherwise would have been good for a city. Since I don't settle on resources, I would have had to settle just south of the horses on the tundra anyway. It wasn't useful what I did.

I browsed through some earlier responses, and noticed start #3 got 2 mentions. That was the most favoured one after #2, so I went with that one, binning #2 (it's still attached at the end of this post, incase anyone is interested). But here's that start #3 again:
Theo3c_zps1425331e.jpg:original

I'd like to settle next to that deer-forest for the extra hammer, so first I move the settler across the river. The warrior goes south.
Turn 1; Constantinopel gets settled. With any other civ I would have started research on Animal Husbandry now, but this is Byzantium, so I stick to Pottery.
Turn1_zpsa14e8fad.jpg:original

Turn 3; find Cahokia; Mercantile, Irrational, Furs & Porcelain.
Turn 6; meet Sydney; Maritime, Irrational, Spices.
Sydney_zps791c42ac.jpg:original

The scout is made, and here's where I split the game again; Liberty goes monument, Honour goes second scout.
Turn 7; first ruin reveals barb camps; that's the most useless type of ruin.
Turn 8; meet Mombasa; Maritime, Hostile, Wine.
Between turn 9 and 10 we finally meet our first other civ:
PacalLeader_zpsd203008f.jpg:original

Pacal's scout came from the north, and we will snap up a ruin just before him. The content will be good: Mining.
PacalScout_zpsc0817537.jpg:original

And between turn 10 and 11:
MontezumaLeader_zpsfde5640f.jpg:original

Lots of people with feathers today! Is there some festivity going on they haven't told me about?
Later I'll see that Pacal covets my terrain, but with Montezuma I have no contested borders. I'm expecting Pacal to be a bit closer to me then.
Turn 11; meet Marrakech; Mercantile, Neutral, Whales & Porcelain.
All 4 CS's have given us 30 gold, and are quite close to us.
Pottery is in, and we continue with Animal Husbandry.
Both games start on a shrine.
Turn 12; we get 20 culture from a ruin. The Honour game picks the Tradition starter, the Liberty game the Liberty starter.
At turn 14 the known world looks like this:
Spoiler :
KnownWorld_zps96623450.jpg:original
I've attached two starting saves; the abandoned #2 and #3, which is the one I'm playing now.
 
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