Libraries First

[dkrussian]

So is it just me or does getting 2 scientists/city up and running as fast as possible work better than going Colosseum first?

Now technically that Colosseum is +4 science and more importantly another city square for awesomeness, but I've found that my science takes off at a far faster rate (And I get tons more scientists) if my new cities go library->2 scientists->everything else.

I have fewer cities and less production, so one would assume that at some point there will be a trade off where having gone Colosseum first would beat out this approach, but to me that is massively mitigated by the much faster earlier tech rate, faster FP, and most important of all, faster secularism+freedom, lately I've gone to not even bothering with liberty and just saving up for those three.

Basically I Rex as far as I can on luxuries alone while building libraries and powerbulbing to either astronomy or banking depending on how much room there is.

So...thoughts? A quantitative comparison from someone who has something more than WAGs to back themselves?

 

[futurehermit]

I've been leaning in this direction as well. It makes sense to me, depending on the terrain/opponents.

 

[Slowpoke]

So is it just me or does getting 2 scientists/city up and running as fast as possible work better than going Colosseum first?

Now technically that Colosseum is +4 science and more importantly another city square for awesomeness, but I've found that my science takes off at a far faster rate (And I get tons more scientists) if my new cities go library->2 scientists->everything else.

I have fewer cities and less production, so one would assume that at some point there will be a trade off where having gone Colosseum first would beat out this approach, but to me that is massively mitigated by the much faster earlier tech rate, faster FP, and most important of all, faster secularism+freedom, lately I've gone to not even bothering with liberty and just saving up for those three.

Basically I Rex as far as I can on luxuries alone while building libraries and powerbulbing to either astronomy or banking depending on how much room there is.

So...thoughts? A quantitative comparison from someone who has something more than WAGs to back themselves?

I guess it depends if you want production or science. Production: colosseums. Science: libraries. Personally, I head for production You might consider, btw, building colosseums first in heavy prod cities, and the cities that get stuck in grasslands go library.

 

[dkrussian]

I guess it depends if you want production or science. Production: colosseums. Science: libraries. Personally, I head for production You might consider, btw, building colosseums first in heavy prod cities, and the cities that get stuck in grasslands go library.

Actually that's exactly what I'm testing now, I've found that the pure libraries approach founders, and the break between hitting ~8 cities and continuing the expansion is too long.

So far I know for a fact: library first in capital is better by all counts (more food from maritime, gets extra production anyway, and you start up GS production right away)

and yes, some alternation seems best for the rest, anything that has a pair of hills or enough plains starts off with colosseum while the rest go library.

With some micro it basically comes down to keeping all of your food surpluses the same. Those that can trade for hammers should do that, while trading more food for science is always a better choice in those that can't.

On a fun note, once I hit secularism, I'm rather fond of immediately canceling out all citizens on unimproved tiles. (+1H +2 sci 1/2 unhappy) is far superior to any of the 2f tiles and better than most of the 1f tiles.

 

[Martin Alvito]

You want size 2 cities building Colosseums. There are math reasons for this, but the explanation is tedious. Suffice it to say that size 2 cities working 2H tiles (which you steadily improve to 3H with Mines) is the optimal combination of getting your Happiness bonus in a timely fashion and maximizing the number of city tiles you're working immediately.

That math probably will not hold up for India, so be aware of that.

Yes, you want a Library in the capital early on. That gives you the ability to bulb Renaissance.

 

[Biz_]

let's pretend you don't get attacked ...

get 3-4 big cities. good civs = india/egypt/france ( happiness, wonders, culture) or siam/greece (city states).

this is nice because you can reach acoustics really quick and have enough culture for great policies. libraries and national college are being built instead of coliseums.

national college is actually about a 75% boost because it is multiplicative after library is accounted for. that means size 10 city = 22.5 science

i think the toughest part is deciding between a settler and great library. if you miss the wonder it really sucks, but if you get it it'll help considerably for medieval SP's (theology, not civil service)

aristocracy is an option if you get it early enough (france... or culture goody hut... or u went monument first...). it's not ICS where you just wasted half the policies you'll ever get in the game

after acoustics you have the option of just throwing down a ton of cities taking advantage of freedom + rationalism or hanging on until communism and then throwing down a ton of cities.

you can probably skip construction (and masonry)
it's possible but unlikely that you can skip mining
i'd imagine with enough rivers or fish you may be able to skip animal/wheel/trapping, but it seems unlikely that you would skip trading posts or trade routes

once you get education, you may even want to finish temples instead of universities, especially if you got acoustics with a great scientist (its fairly easy if you make this your 1st great scientist)

 

[Paeanblack]

So is it just me or does getting 2 scientists/city up and running as fast as possible work better than going Colosseum first?

I think the important question is: how many MORE cities are you planning to build? There is no question about libraries-first once your happiness situation is no longer dicey, but before that, it's a tossup. It's also somewhat moot after you have enough money and maritime food to just buy your way out of making a decision.

Martin and I have danced around this question. We both play a similar game, but he pushes for more science specialists (lib/uni), and I push for continued expansion (colosseums/settlers) during the midgame (turns 70-120ish). Painting with a very broad brush, Martin's method gets a faster diplo win, and mine gets a faster spaceship win. His system picks up key benchmark techs like Banking and Steam about ten turns earlier, but the bigger sprawl in my system starts to outtech his by around turn 160-170ish and will power through the space techs sooner. Having tried his system a few times now, it also seems to be more stable.

There may be a third option:

I've found that running 2 scientists in expansion cities early really cuts into the growth. The second scientist will cost you more food/hammers/gold than the first scientist, because you are always giving up a better tile for the second one. It seems wasteful to only run one scientist after investing in a library, but it seems to provide a good balance in the midgame, with the city still able to grow and produce in a reasonable fashion. (Assuming the city in question would never have generated a GS...)

 

[Martin Alvito]

As I'm learning to time GA's, I'm getting faster. I am on schedule to finally crack turn 200 on Deity for the spaceship. When I get a chance to finish the game, I'll post.

It appears that only the Babs can pull this one off, because I am leaning very, very hard on Great Scientists in the endgame.

 

[Paeanblack]

So far, the only posted sub-200 spaceship games have been with India, but not at Deity yet. India produces the required beakers from raw population. The midgame tech hit with the colosseums-first method is probably what is keeping Deity out of reach.

I don't have Babylon, so haven't tried them yet. How much is their UU helping? The War Elephant is definitely a big part of the India games.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I never build it. I play the opening far, far differently, though. I spam Warriors, rush and annex rather than build the first Settler. Then I upgrade. When you have the most cities and a half dozen Swords, nobody messes with you.

It's the fifteen Great Scientists I'm pumping out that help in the endgame. This accomplishes three things: I can start on Apollo around 150, I can perma-GA from about 150 on, and I can complete the necessary portion of the tech tree once the second round of Research Agreements lands around 170. It takes me a LOT longer to build parts, because I've gutted my growth to make all that Science, but you have to accept some tradeoffs.

The other thing that stinks is the upkeep on saved Great Scientists. My economy crashes hard in the 135-140 range, and is pretty pathetic when the first round of GA (Happy bucket and Rationalism) runs out.

 

[E66man]

It's the fifteen Great Scientists I'm pumping out that help in the endgame. This accomplishes three things: I can start on Apollo around 150, I can perma-GA from about 150 on, and I can complete the necessary portion of the tech tree once the second round of Research Agreements lands around 170. It takes me a LOT longer to build parts, because I've gutted my growth to make all that Science, but you have to accept some tradeoffs.

Does this mean you're spending your time researching cheap techs you wouldn't normally want (like Sailing, perhaps) so that they don't get picked when the RAs finish?

 

[Paeanblack]

The other thing that stinks is the upkeep on saved Great Scientists. My economy crashes hard in the 135-140 range, and is pretty pathetic when the first round of GA (Happy bucket and Rationalism) runs out.

Can you stick extra Great People into cryogenic storage (the nearest barb camp) like I do with extra settlers until you are ready to use them? It sounds like that could save you tons of cash.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Does this mean you're spending your time researching cheap techs you wouldn't normally want (like Sailing, perhaps) so that they don't get picked when the RAs finish?

The first round of RAs (ending between 130 and 140) gives me the stuff at the top of the Renaissance. The second round fills in space techs.

As long as you've previously invested Science in a tech, the game will never pick it. So if you waste a turn on Metallurgy and a turn on Fertilizer, you can guarantee that you get only techs you need from RAs. (Defense gets very interesting late in the game with this approach. Holding off waves of Riflemen with Cannon and Longswords is not fun.)

Sailing is important early on. Navigation is huge on Continents. The sooner you get Caravels out there, the sooner you can get RAs that will actually complete. RAs with civs on your continent are a serious crapshoot.

Can you stick extra Great People into cryogenic storage (the nearest barb camp) like I do with extra settlers until you are ready to use them? It sounds like that could save you tons of cash.

Haven't tried it yet. If it works, it would be worth quite a bit of coin per turn. Enough to rush a building, for sure.

 

[ZwodahS]

how do you guys do 200 turns space >.< (btw what date is turn 200 ? )

at turn 150+- i am only having about 200 beaker 100GPT. and haven't even hit industry. Tho my science is going fast, my growth seems to have slow down (both vertical and horizontal). I already have 4 prod city up with 5/6 citizen and each with 15 raw hammer tile. Anyway to improve my research now ?

 

[Martin Alvito]

I'll be going into a lot more detail in a new thread once I finish up, but the basic plan involves two ICS waves of settlement, then building a ton of Universities and staffing them fully with Scientists using Babylon.

You only need six production sites. One will be the capital. The other five can stop running their Scientists and build production buildings once they make a GS.

With enough cities, you make about 15 Great Scientists during a game. That's enough to plow through the tech tree by the time Apollo finishes and Golden Age the entire Modern era using Taj, the second Happiness bucket GA and GGs/GS's.

That and size 8+ cities from a Maritime bloom after you get the second GA will bang out Apollo and the spaceship in fairly short order.

 

[Monthar]

how do you guys do 200 turns space >.< (btw what date is turn 200 ? )

at turn 150+- i am only having about 200 beaker 100GPT. and haven't even hit industry. Tho my science is going fast, my growth seems to have slow down (both vertical and horizontal). I already have 4 prod city up with 5/6 citizen and each with 15 raw hammer tile. Anyway to improve my research now ?

I'd like to know this answer as well as how they get 50+ and 10 cities by turn 80. The best I can manage so far is about 20-30 with 8-12 cities by turn 80. That's provided I don't have several barbarian camps spawn almost on top of me wiping out my warrior(s) before I can even complete the first settler. Not to mention the all the barbarians that keep coming from those camps, forcing me to build/buy more warriors instead of more settlers and workers.

In fact when bee-lining construction so I can build coliseums first, at what point am I supposed to build warriors & workers instead of settlers & coliseums? Especially if I want to reach these science and city count goals for turn 80ish and the turn 200ish science victory.

I've been trying to do this stuff on Diety difficulty so I can complete that Steam achievement. I've been using either Ramkhamhaeng, Cathy or Askia, so I can complete the achievement for winning with them as well. The few times I get close to the turn 80 goal I end up getting wardec'd by turn 100. When I try to build enough troops to stave off the wardec, I can sometimes manage the number of cities, but get nowhere near the science goal. Even then I still end up getting wardec'd by turn 120ish.

It'd be nice if one of the gurus would post an ICS guide in the Strategy Guides subforum that includes build orders and early tech orders for coliseum first, library first and mixed build orders. Please also include social policies and what order you normally take them in. Preferably a guide that does not henge on abusing the broken mechanics, such as archipelago map, horse rush, etc. Lastly, this guide should NOT be civ specific, especially if the only way you pull it off is with Babylon, since many of us do not have that civ.

 

[Monthar]

I'll be going into a lot more detail in a new thread once I finish up, but the basic plan involves two ICS waves of settlement, then building a ton of Universities and staffing them fully with Scientists using Babylon.

You only need six production sites. One will be the capital. The other five can stop running their Scientists and build production buildings once they make a GS.

With enough cities, you make about 15 Great Scientists during a game. That's enough to plow through the tech tree by the time Apollo finishes and Golden Age the entire Modern era using Taj, the second Happiness bucket GA and GGs/GS's.

That and size 10+ cities from a Maritime bloom after you get the second GA will bang out Apollo and the spaceship in fairly short order.

Considering many of us do not have Babylon, this does not help.

 

[ZwodahS]

i think the build order s kind of depend on what you have , how much prod, etc .

tech order i tend to go

Pottery -> Library -> Calendar(if you have many luxury that needs it) or go straight for construction after that.

i can't hit 50 science by turn 80 as well. but using france i manage to hit 30+sci but can be improve cause i was involved in a war at turn 60+

i believe france can get there faster, as they have access to meritocracy easily thus having a happness boost early game

 

[Martin Alvito]

Considering many of us do not have Babylon, this does not help.

You can do it with other civs. France can emulate the strat by picking up 50% GP generation in Freedom and switching Wonder builds, but Babylon is strictly faster.

 

[pi-r8]

PieceOfMind has a mod you can download that effectively duplicates Babylon.