Lionised and Vilified

[pigswill]

Good time to trade a tech is when its a monopoly. Benefits of music: free GA (got), Sistine (can rush), pre-req for miltrad but then so is CS which is our other trade bait.

Edit: I don't really understand why Globe seems such a priority. I could understand it if we were a few turns from cuirassiers but that's still in the distance. Its certainly not something we're competing for. We probably need to run a GA to get the GS towards liberalism, we can't run slavery during GA (well we can but we won't get any GS). Sistine and scientists will help grab iron in Frankfurt.

 

[vranasm]

I have a little bit bad experience in some games where giving Music away led to AI's being motivated on military tradition and making defense pacts and cuirassiers...

MC and HBR are certainly techs on our shop list, Feud eventually too... would be imo better if you would shop some other tech instead in my eyes, but can live with what you propose...

 

[Sengir]

I don't see much of a problem with trading Music away for three techs.

About the globe: The nice thing is that you can whip a lot of stuff into it, as the unhappies will be gone when the globe is done. As for Sistine vs Globe: The hammer cost is the same (as we have marble), so it's 300h for the GE in either case. The happies don't really figure into this at this point, sistine gives more culture right of the bat, and runs the risk of being lost, whereas we're sure to get the Globe.

In short, I agree with pigwills plan

I'd switch back to no religion at the end of the GA though

 

[nocho]

I'm Switzerland on trading music away.

Lots of good comments already since last set. I just wanted to say something about chain irrigation. I think the Frankfurt lake is salty water, so we can't farm from there. Essen realy badly needs farms up, because with some more farms it can be quite decent on production. Since I'd like to irrigate its wheat and since I think the hill it's founded on won't pass the water (not illogically ) and we won't want to irrigate the iron, I think its water should come from a nice chain starting at Munich to the SE, then back up NE towards Dortmund (which can also use some farms, workshop the rest) and then all the way along the lake up to Essen (it has some forested plains to its east that provide a path).

 

[pigswill]

Switzerland?

I wonder if our glorious leader has any insights (or opinions)?

 

[Cam_H]

Well, I can see both cases for Sistine vs. Globe in Frankfurt.

My feeling is this ...

If we want Sistine, then we should burn our Great Engineer on it + bulb Philosophy/Pacifism, and then run our Golden Age. Abuse the heck out of our cities to get out those two or three s that vran's keen on.

I think that burning the Great Engineer on Globe and see-sawing the construction of Sistine between Berlin and Frankfurt with intermittent whipping into Sistine in Frankfurt is going to cause too much conflict in terms of what we're trying to achieve with population management. I'm also sympathetic to pigswill's point on how desperate we are for Globe anyway ... it'd be 'a' priority, but not a 'desperate' priority (if that's not too vague).

Until Sistine's more-or-less in the bag, and assuming that it's important to us - which I believe it is - I wouldn't trade Music, so there's another reason for the hurry on Sistine in preference to Globe. I'm not Switzerland on that one.

I'm hearing nocho in terms of chain irrigation. Also Stuttgart and Munich. Farming also needed on that last riverside Grassland in Berlin's BFC for feeding the miners.

I'm still a fan of Cologne being our little Worker pump for a while. Hamburg could do with the Workers.

I'd trade Sheep + Gold with Catherine for Clams + 6 per turn.

I'd take the Civil Service + 90 for Feudalism deal with Suleiman ... still nervous about our lack of Medieval units.

I'm assuming the Settler's for Iron-Deer-Silver???

I have no idea whether Judaism or Buddhism is the 'smart move' for our Golden Age.

 

[nocho]

Switzerland?

Yes, Emmental. I can see the holes or the cheese, depending on how I look at it. Truth is though I have more eye for the cheese (meaning trading).

To add a bit of confusion, I think we may as well skip Sistine (and cash the failure gold at some point). It is not really any kind of priority nor very essential to the variant. It's a lot of hammers that could be spent on other useful stuff, even military. I'm not worried at all about the 20k culture city, we'll get there. But if we are, maybe we better just build some cathedrals soon in the cap (not seeing the save, but I understand we have at least bud and jud there).

 

[vranasm]

I kind of don't understand why we fight so much about the Sistine chapel ;-)
This wonder is so rarely built by humans in games I follow here on forums, that really surprise me why make out of it something like crucial thing...

Add to that that it's mostly useful while running religion, which we absolutely don't plan to (except for like 7 turns in GA) and we even can't after Lib.

@nocho
I thought you mean more the neutrality that is Swiss known for...

 

[Cam_H]

Well, if 40% of your victorious games involved; 'Pyramids + Sistine = Cultural' while two-thirds of the remaining 60% involved 'Pyramids + Internet = Space', well, you'd like Sistine too! Did I suggest anything about the awesomeness of The Pyramids?

 

[Sengir]

As I mentioned before (I think), I'm not that hot about the Sistine either, but if we're going to burn the GE on a wonder, I'd rather burn him on the Sistine than on the Globe.

 

[vranasm]

it seems to me that it's more about the use of GE then about the Sistine itself kind of...

What about some refreshing idea?

We will definitely run Corps (Cereal Mills are variant rule) sooo... there is that small little thing called Mining Inc... it usually is a bit of work to get GE for that Corp... we already have one...

When we're at it... maybe the 3rd GP should be GM for the Cereal Mills corp?

We should maybe think about such things in advance ;-)

 

[pigswill]

We seem to be going backwards at the moment .

Still a long way from consensus. If there's no real love for Sistine (apart from Cam H who's very cultured) and no immediate rush for Globe (not until after Golden Age GPspam anyway) then we could save GE. I'd go back to rushing Taj at this point.

Good point re GM, if we're heading for Milsci we can't guarantee Economics' free GM.

Don't trade music seems to be a point of agreement. CS (and presumably drama) are fair enough. Obviously don't trade philosophy.

 

[Cam_H]

Still a long way from consensus. If there's no real love for Sistine (apart from Cam H who's very cultured).

Alas it's true ... we've got the Pyramids ... we're a Philo' leader ... we've now got Marble ... oh Lordy Lord ... we're goin' ta Vegas baby ... YEAH!

 

[pigswill]

I guess one thing to consider is that we do need to win the game as well as survive and complete the variants and culture could be an option (if we get at least one more religion anyway).

Or we could go for a crude blood and thunder blitzkreig style domination time game.....

 

[Sengir]

Taj can be chopped fairly easily in Berlin, no real need for a GE there (IMHO). Saving the GE for Cereal Mills might be a wise decision (I had forgotten about that particular variant rule).

About how we win the game:

 

[pigswill]

Berlin has one forest left so things can be built there but they won't get chopped out.

 

[cabert]

here is what I would do :
1) trade music + drama away for feudalism, HR and metal casting
2) bulb the GE for machinery
3) bulb the GS for philo
4) assign artists +scientists in fish city
5) slow build sistin in berlin for failure gold
6) keep the artist to golden age later

 

[Cam_H]

Taj can be chopped fairly easily in Berlin, no real need for a GE there (IMHO). Saving the GE for Cereal Mills might be a wise decision (I had forgotten about that particular variant rule).

About how we win the game:

Great Engineer for Mining Inc. or Creative Constructions, Great Merchant for Cereal Mills.

Win by Cultural ...

We're first to Music, can hurry Sistine and run culture-boosted Artists, one variant requires the technologies that unlock Free Speech and Hermitage and Taj, another variant requires us to get to Electricity and therefore Broadway, and it's on the way to Rock n Roll / Hollywood / Broadcast Towers if we want, we already have nine cities, and we're about to get our fourth religion. Getting the Defensive Pact 'nicely' should be fairly easy, although it's not out of the question to cap' either Catherine or Maria Theresa. Without even trying, Berlin's the #5 cultural city in the world already.

 

[pigswill]

Where are we going with this? We seem to have lost our way.

Shall we go cultural? Rush Sistine in Frankfurt, launch GA etc.

 

[Cam_H]

I think it's our most likely winning victory condition, but admittedly, straight-out peaceful Cultural can be relatively dull to play (I don't mind it, but I know others do).

One issue we have is that we need to do it within 'Free Religion' (variant) rather than with Organised Religion or Pacifism - both handy Civics for this VC.

Another is that we have a zealot in the Holy Romans on our border, which means we'll probably be asked to move out of Free Religion a lot to only refuse the offers, plus we'll be unable to wield a State Religion as a diplomatic tool, therefore possibly elevating our chances of being invaded while we're focusing on infrastructure and generally non-military technologies.

They're not 'perfect' conditions for a late-game Cultural win, but I believe we're nonetheless very well suited to it. I'd like to kill this proposal off or commit to it now, so I'm fine with pigswill holding things up for a bit.