Lizardmen

[Seont]

This is what I have experienced as well; if anything is a threat to early cities, it's skeletons. This is especially true if there are multiple nearby barrows or a "lucky" Sailor's Dirge.

So why is it that Lizardmen will often leave your Workers alone, but Skeletons won't pass up a chance to kill one? Is the AI treating the Lizardmen as a scout of some sort? To my understanding, the AI can always see the entire map anyway.

might i suggest everyone here in this thread report what settings they use, because i know skeletons are a real threat on the epic speed, on normal speed, for me, they are just xp fodder as long as i can get 2 warriors out before they swarm, or get one some descent xp atleast, thus tilting the odds in my favor. But i think map and speed, and player settings play a huge part in this. for instance i like 11-14 nations, huge map, usually continents, normal speed. raging barbarians(does that actually affect liz's and skels that spawn from barrows and ruins, or just the orcs and goblins, and maybe animals?) this often means more barrows and ruins and they aren't found and destroyed before they start spawning.

and i have to say just the opposite is true for me, skeletons usually leave my workers alone unless they are directly in the path to the city, plus with move 1, they are easy to out run, and often leave you plenty of warning.Lizardmen force me to hide my workers since, while with a skeleton i can move them to the opposite side of the barrow(s), with lizard men, they simply sneak around whenever i move them. when a lizardmen first appears, he usually won't attack, which is good since usually everyone has a task and by the time i've seen the lizardman my turn is over and the workers move spent(annoying), but after that they pick them off whenever the oppertunity presents itself.

I've found lizardmen will attack my newly created cities, regardless of number of defenders, if they can get to it in the first couple of turns(before the fort bonus, or culture bonus kicks in) and while my capital *tends* to be safe, if its on desert, or flood plains(which become desert) it seems to encourage them to take a stab at it, especially if they already have a promotion or two.

which is in my oppinion, where the real problem lies. Lizardmen level so dang fast, since their first kills are isolated warriors or scouts, they've already got combat 2 or 3 by the time they start circling my cities, turning their 3 into a 4.2 or 4.8 against my lowly 2.0(attacking) or at best 3 defending. then the barbs show up, weakening my troops, and the liz's have a field day.

i am glad mobility was moved, now they don't seem to ever get it, meaning no move 4 lizardmen popping in and out of the fog of war, slaughtering my people without warning, that was really aggrevating.

 

[Sarisin]

I think it has been documented that the game is tougher at the slower speeds like Epic and Marathon no matter if the threat is Skeletons or Lizardmen.

It just takes more time to build units. Yes, you do have the rush production possiblity as mentioned, but even that might not help if you have 2-3 Skeletons show up.

I have been campaigning for the time to introduce animals, Skeletons, Sailor's Dirge, etc, to be staggered according to game speed like the barbarians (goblins, orc spearmen).

Still, I have to say in my last few Fire games the Skeleton/Lizardmen threats have been minimal I think because of so many animals in the early going.

I usually play Fire at Epic, Prince, on a Huge Fantasy map which is almost all land.

 

[onedreamer]

Even if you have a warrior in your city, 3 Str barbarians that early in the game are obnoxious. 2 Str, with +25% to defend, versus 3 Str with -25% to attack = the Lizardmen still win >50% of the time. Even if you're creative, the extra 20% bonus from the first culture expansion still doesn't quite make up the difference.

Warrior: base strength 2. City defense, +25%. Possible 5 turns fortification, +25%. Other very common boni are hill defense (another +25%) and the classic +20% culture defense. In most cases, a lone hunter/lizardman has really no chances to take a city, especially when that warrior starts getting promoted. In fact, Lizardmen almost never attack cities because of their low chances to win. They absolutely don't need such a high penalty as -50% to city attack. What is needed though is a code that checks for lower speed game settings (epic and marathon) regarding the chances to spawn from ruins and barrows. In normal speed, by turn 14 you mathematically have all possibilities to have a warrior from 1 turn, so in case you don't it's because you avoided to pursue this goal; which can be deadly in case your start is not far from jungles.

 

[vorshlumpf]

Warrior: base strength 2. City defense, +25%. Possible 5 turns fortification, +25%. Other very common boni are hill defense (another +25%) and the classic +20% culture defense.

Don't forget those silly bonuses that human and AI get against barbarian units (based on difficulty setting) plus the barb penalty for attacking cities (also based on difficulty setting).

In general, I've had no problem defending against barbs (I always play marathon speed, raging barbs). However, I'll agree that it makes sense to throttle spawn rate and offset spawn start dates based on game speed, if this isn't already being done.

 

[Seont]

I think it has been documented that the game is tougher at the slower speeds like Epic and Marathon no matter if the threat is Skeletons or Lizardmen.

Generally more difficult yes, but also from what i've read in posts(i tend to play on the same settings) what presents the bigger, or most aggrevating problem, changes. Peoples play styles and build priorities change, and it has a great impact on the game, and its not just about speed.

people who tend to talk about barbarians being easy i'd bet, when i don't know for sure, are on smaller or atleast more player populated maps, or else archipelagos. people who complain about skeletons tend to be on marathon or epic speed games, and tend not to complain as much about the lizards, that seems atleast to be a complaint for normal speed, especially pangea from what i've read.

you can't balance a game for one speed, but you also don't just balance a game for one map size, and one number of players. Basically, I think your solution needs to take into account a few more variables to truely fix the problem.

 

[onedreamer]

people who tend to talk about barbarians being easy i'd bet, when i don't know for sure, are on smaller or atleast more player populated maps, or else archipelagos. people who complain about skeletons tend to be on marathon or epic speed games, and tend not to complain as much about the lizards, that seems atleast to be a complaint for normal speed, especially pangea from what i've read.

you can't balance a game for one speed, but you also don't just balance a game for one map size, and one number of players. Basically, I think your solution needs to take into account a few more variables to truely fix the problem.

I almost always play Highlands with default number of civs and raging barbs, monarch difficulty or emperor, which must be one of the most barbarian crowded map types, and I don't have many problems, in general, to defend cities from skeletons and none at all to defend them from lizardmen (improvements can be tough to defend though). You start with a huge explored part and 2 units, move out and go to destroy those barrows around your city, for gods' sake ! If by chance you get to a barrow at turn 5 already occupied by a skeleton, well... tough luck. It's turn 5, not turn 5 hundred, you can decide if restarting or to try and continue, but be ready to face some undead army. I would not call this a balance issue, it's just a matter of luck in the beginning, and careful defense planning later on. If you're well defended, there's good chances skeletons will even heed somewhere else.
There are people who complain about barbs and then post screenshots with 1 warrior defending two cities...

 

[Sarisin]

Generally more difficult yes, but also from what i've read in posts(i tend to play on the same settings) what presents the bigger, or most aggrevating problem, changes. Peoples play styles and build priorities change, and it has a great impact on the game, and its not just about speed.

people who tend to talk about barbarians being easy i'd bet, when i don't know for sure, are on smaller or atleast more player populated maps, or else archipelagos. people who complain about skeletons tend to be on marathon or epic speed games, and tend not to complain as much about the lizards, that seems atleast to be a complaint for normal speed, especially pangea from what i've read.

you can't balance a game for one speed, but you also don't just balance a game for one map size, and one number of players. Basically, I think your solution needs to take into account a few more variables to truely fix the problem.

I agree with your post 100%, Seont!

There are so many variable in this game/mod it really is hard to make any kind of general statements. One guy might be having a Skeleton explosion while another doesn't see any. Same with Lizardmen, animals, etc.

It isn't just about speed, but I mention that because (me not being a programmer) it would seem to be one of the easier variable to adjust - the appearance of barbs is staggered, so why not the Skeletons, animals, etc.?

I think each player, me included, loves experimenting with the variable until he finds a comfortable game situation. If you are going to 'invest' hours of gameplay you want to use variables you like. So guys like you and I use our settings, but someone else might like Archipelago maps at Normal speed. Great for them and great for us.

No way would I expect the team to design a game/mod that addresses every variable. I am really happy with what we have and I adjust my variable selection accordingly. But, I don't think it hurts to make suggestions in this forum that you think might improve things a bit.

 

[Sarisin]

I almost always play Highlands with default number of civs and raging barbs, monarch difficulty or emperor, which must be one of the most barbarian crowded map types, and I don't have many problems, in general, to defend cities from skeletons and none at all to defend them from lizardmen (improvements can be tough to defend though). You start with a huge explored part and 2 units, move out and go to destroy those barrows around your city, for gods' sake ! If by chance you get to a barrow at turn 5 already occupied by a skeleton, well... tough luck. It's turn 5, not turn 5 hundred, you can decide if restarting or to try and continue, but be ready to face some undead army. I would not call this a balance issue, it's just a matter of luck in the beginning, and careful defense planning later on. If you're well defended, there's good chances skeletons will even heed somewhere else.
There are people who complain about barbs and then post screenshots with 1 warrior defending two cities...

It sounds like you are still playing a Normal speed game, onedreamer, from your reference to turn 5. I agree the game is a lot about luck. Having a Skeleton appear close to your borders on a Ruin/Barrow can be problematic especially at the slower game speeds.

I agree that defending cities is rather easy in this game even when faced with swarms of raging barbs. However, the AI really goes after improvements and that IMO is the real challenge - protecting those mines, plantations, farms, etc.

I got pretty good playing the Elohim and moved up to Monarch difficulty (raging barbs, AggAI). However, when I tried a new civ (Sheiam) I found myself getting killed. I guess it is just a learning process to see what works.

About luck, I think I might have the worst luck.

I find even in raging barb games the AI always seems to expand at will. However, if I try the old expand with one city defender trick, I get the raging barb horde on me quick. In fact, really it has been my experience in almost every raging barb game that the barbs target me first. This really sets me back as I cannot build improvements or expand while the AI civs are doing just that. Of course, the tradeoff is that I have a very experienced army from XP gained in defense and often can rollover those civs that have jumped ahead of me.

It really is hard, especially in raging barb games, to balance defense with expansion. And, yes, luck plays a huge part in this too!

 

[Seont]

I almost always play Highlands with default number of civs and raging barbs, monarch difficulty or emperor, which must be one of the most barbarian crowded map types, and I don't have many problems, in general, to defend cities from skeletons and none at all to defend them from lizardmen (improvements can be tough to defend though). You start with a huge explored part and 2 units, move out and go to destroy those barrows around your city, for gods' sake ! If by chance you get to a barrow at turn 5 already occupied by a skeleton, well... tough luck. It's turn 5, not turn 5 hundred, you can decide if restarting or to try and continue, but be ready to face some undead army. I would not call this a balance issue, it's just a matter of luck in the beginning, and careful defense planning later on. If you're well defended, there's good chances skeletons will even heed somewhere else.
There are people who complain about barbs and then post screenshots with 1 warrior defending two cities...

what game speed are you playing at? how much jungle do you actually get with highland maps? i've never played but with a name like that i'd have to guess little in which case no wonder lizardmen aren't much of a problem for you. you can't say its fine if this is "almost always" the settings you play at,cause how can you really know?

personally, and i think most people agree, a skeleton or two is okay, its when the barrows go out of control spawning every turn or two that things get stupid. I don't want to restart just because this has happened, or keep reloading everytime the random number generator goes off its rocker.
i want a challenge, that makes the game fun, but in those kinds of situation, its not a challenge, its a slaughter. and its not turn 5 by the time thats apparant, its turn 80 - 100, so its decidedly aggrevating to go that far and have to restart for such a stupid reason as an unbalanced feature going haywire.

i've had skeletons spawn my first turn, much less turn 5, i've also had barrows within the radius of my capital because my warrior and scout, who don't spawn ontop of the settler but several tiles away, were too far away, and the terrain too movement restricted(hills and forests) to get to the barrow in time. it can't always be done
regardless of whether i get to all the ones near me, i've seen what someone described as the "congo line" far too often, where barbarians travel from all over the continent, forgoing closers civs, just to pick on me.

most aggrevating is that just 2 to 3 determined lizardmen is enough to completely screw me over. they leave only long enough to bring out a worker, or try to use a settler, which even with 2 gaurds can be very risky if you ever have to cross open ground, much less desert, worse if the liz's have a couple of promotions on them, and they usually do. Then the lizards swoop back. with a move of 2 its not like you can easily corner them, and a strength of 3 you will need seriously larger numbers to pull it off, and then you have to hope you are lucky enough to win the fight, cause if you loose, you've bought them another promotion and weakened your defenses. I've had absolutely amazing starts end with me in last place because i was unable to expand or develope, they just wouldn't let up and there was nothing i could do about it.

yeah it doesn't happen all the time, but enough to be very frustrating. And hey, guess what, you are better than me at this game. maybe you can handle them in these situations at these settings, but here's the thing, the AI empires i can handle at these settings or even higher, they are a challenge, they are balanced, even if i loose, its a fair loss, its fun. but these dang lizards i can't, because they are not balanced, not in abilities or behavior. not in respect to the other aspects of the game, and absolutely not at all settings.

 

[onedreamer]

It sounds like you are still playing a Normal speed game, onedreamer, from your reference to turn 5.

Of course I play on normal, because I think it's the most balanced. But the script for skeleton appearance doesn't take speed into consideration, nor the time it takes to your initial scout to get to a barrow near your capital, so this isn't really relevant.

I agree that defending cities is rather easy in this game even when faced with swarms of raging barbs. However, the AI really goes after improvements and that IMO is the real challenge - protecting those mines, plantations, farms, etc.

I think we agree on most of this stuff Sarisin. And here I agree with you again, but I am replying in a thread where the OP is saying that Lizardmen have to be tuned down because it's too easy for them to take cities... and I don't really see this. Improvements, I said it in the post before: yep it's tough, with raging barbs and if they decide to "converge" on you, it's really tough. Though if you manage to not fall too much behind, you'll have a super experienced army and can turn to your neighbor with an evil grin...

I got pretty good playing the Elohim and moved up to Monarch difficulty (raging barbs, AggAI). However, when I tried a new civ (Sheiam) I found myself getting killed. I guess it is just a learning process to see what works.

One civ that also works well is Bannor, because Enforcers have higher city defenses.

It really is hard, especially in raging barb games, to balance defense with expansion. And, yes, luck plays a huge part in this too!

Hehe, yeah. I don't colonize without 2 warriors of which 1 expert and without another 2 of which 1 expert defending my original city.

what game speed are you playing at? how much jungle do you actually get with highland maps? i've never played but with a name like that i'd have to guess little in which case no wonder lizardmen aren't much of a problem for you. you can't say its fine if this is "almost always" the settings you play at,cause how can you really know?

You ask me questions about maps but state that I don't really know ? I don't play this mod from yesterday but from the beginning, I almost always play Highlands now, after trying all the rest, because I think it fits more with mod and its story etc. FYI, Highlands have the same amount of jungle than Pangea or Balanced or Continents. But instead of it being located at the equator, it's either at the top or at the bottom. In Highlands maps, randomly, the top is tundra and the bottom desert (around which jungles) or viceversa. There is no sea sorrounding the continent and there aren't connected map borders.

most aggrevating is that just 2 to 3 determined lizardmen is enough to completely screw me over. they leave only long enough to bring out a worker, or try to use a settler, which even with 2 gaurds can be very risky if you ever have to cross open ground, much less desert, worse if the liz's have a couple of promotions on them, and they usually do.

Definitely agree, but here the OP and many others are stating that they can't defend CITIES from lizardmen, and propose to put a -50% city attack or even worse a whopping -50% city strength on lizardmen and hunters, making these units almost useless compared to their cost. How much would this "solution" help with the above problem ? Work that has to be done is IMO in balancing barbarian spawn toward speed and limiting the total number of barbarians... possibly in an area, otherwise in the world (this is already beeing done I believe). Normally a couple of defenders are enough if you stick to forests and if you need to go into the open, send a scout to be sure first. Yes it's a tough world, and it's hard to colonize. But this is what the designer wanted, so complaining that it's not as easy as in Vanilla (where the goal is "be first to colonize everywhere") is probably less constructive than discussing of issues like the problem of game speed and of convergence of barbarians, which is when all the goddamn barbarians of the world heed toward you to annihilate you. In that case, the game ceases to be funny.

 

[Skavian]

I think you're assuming a lot about my playing capabilities Onedreamer. In any case, all of your maths aside, the purpose of a unit has a lot to do with its being in the game. Are Lizardmen supposed to be, like hunters, units that harass your borders? I suppose it is possible for hunters to take cities, but thematically they are used as guerillas. They strike and disappear. I think we can all agree on that.

Now, I don't know much about the spawning rates, but I can say that most of you seem to have the right idea. Maybe adjusting spawning times or rates will help balance the lizardmen. However Lizards and Skeletons appear early enough to matter sometimes. Ordinarily I, like any normal person, beat them back. However, there have been situations often enough to warrant my questioning the strength of the lizards. As you may notice, Kael and Co. changed the Skelies to have Strength 2 +1 Death. I am ok with that. Effectively, they are as strong as a warrior, but with a little more oomf. They should be stomping towards your cities. Whatevs.

Lizards though? They are superior to skeletons in just about every way. Sure, they may only appear in jungles, but I'm sure we have also all noticed how quickly they migrate and how insane their decisions for movement can be. Statistically, they are a powerhouse early in the game. They can appear early enough to be a serious problem for anyone, and best of luck to the poor bloke that happens to be near multiple ruins.

So, what's the point? You seem to think they are fine as is. Sure, fine. But you still haven't presented an argument as to why they should be strength 3 instead of strength 2, or have some alteration. Thematically, if they are powerhousing cities (and they can, I don't care what your math says because promotions change that) then they really aren't fulfilling their strike and disappear role. They can still do that role just as well with strength 2, and quite frankly I'm cool with them being a super nuisance OUTSIDE of my city. That's what they are there for. However, until someone gives me a damn good reason why they should have strength 3 (and I don't mean honking the actual Hunter unit for the Clan, but making a new unit here) I am totally unconvinced that they should just remain as is.

 

[vorshlumpf]

Though I have never had problems with lizardmen taking my cities, I have often said that it doesn't make sense for the Clan hunter unit (which takes the Clan a bunch of techs to be able to build) to be available as a barb unit from the beginning of the game. A more primitive lizardman would seem right (e.g., a lizardman warrior, club - or just bare hands - and all).

 

[kenken244]

i believe that barrows and ruins already spawn different things based on technology. it should be easy to add a tech level req on lizard spawning. it might be nice to make them 3/2 imo

 

[Polycrates]

I gather that a fair bit of barb-related stuff is changing in shadow, with the quests and whatnot.
I'd have barrows and ruins guarded right from turn 1 (I'm not so much a fan of the 'find them super early or suffer' dynamic). But in return, I'd lower the spawn rate a bit (and maybe block further spawning altogether until turn x). And I'd make them like a goody hut for the civ who wipes out the ruin or barrow. That way, they're a juicy target for you to send troops towards, and they act as a mechanism to block expansion somewhat.

 

[onedreamer]

Skavian, I don't assume anything on your playing capabilities. At turn 14 you can have a warrior in your capital, period. It's not a matter of back luck. If you don't care of maths then what should we discuss about ? Ok let's move to game experience. As I already said, and others seem to confirm my impression, lizardmen rarely can pose a serious threat to the life of your cities. They can certainly cause harassment though, they are a pain with their 2 moves and approach-but not attack tactics patrolling around your borders, and this is the guerrilla tactic that you'd like to see them doing and that's what they do in my gaming experience and in my maths. Certainly, if your city is undefended or defended by a scout they'll go for it... but you picked a case of bad luck and poor strategy and want to apply to a general condition, which is just wrong.
I haven't understood your comparison between skeletons and lizardmen, either. They both have strength 3 but lizardmen have -20% city attack plus they are recon units (can't pillage). How can you consider them more dangerous than skeletons for your cities ?

PS: you asked feedback as to how giving a help to the player vs these 2 units, here it is: move the vs. undead promotion back to Ancient Chants, and make Lizardmen "orc" units, or make them "lizardmen" and add another promotion in Ancient Chants vs lizardmen.

 

[Sarisin]

PS: you asked feedback as to how giving a help to the player vs these 2 units, here it is: move the vs. undead promotion back to Ancient Chants, and make Lizardmen "orc" units, or make them "lizardmen" and add another promotion in Ancient Chants vs lizardmen.

onedreamer, I like your idea about moving up that undead promotion.

I believe the Lizardmen are considered orc units and you can get the bonus against them from Ancient Chants. It really helps when your Warriors have that promotion against the Lizardmen.

I originally thought they were considered animal units, but Kael set me straight on that.

 

[Sarisin]

I gather that a fair bit of barb-related stuff is changing in shadow, with the quests and whatnot.
I'd have barrows and ruins guarded right from turn 1 (I'm not so much a fan of the 'find them super early or suffer' dynamic). But in return, I'd lower the spawn rate a bit (and maybe block further spawning altogether until turn x). And I'd make them like a goody hut for the civ who wipes out the ruin or barrow. That way, they're a juicy target for you to send troops towards, and they act as a mechanism to block expansion somewhat.

I like your suggestions.

Too many times I have moved to take out a barrow/ruin only to find a strong defender there when I arrive. OK, fine, but then don't have that place spawning beaucoup bad guys. Slow down the spawning rate.

And, I really like your idea about giving the player something for taking out a barrow/ruin, guarded or unguarded. Maybe just some gold, at least not as much as you can get from a goodie hut.

IMO the game needs a mechanism like you suggest to slow down the out of control expansion the AI features. I am convinced the AI elves, for example, sends out both for exploration leaving the capital city unguarded. Would they do this if a guarded barrow was nearby? Probably, although an unpromoted Scout would have little chance against a Skeleton.

AI civs MIGHT think twice before settling all those cities with a lone Warrior defender (unpromoted) and expanding like crazy.

 

[Gamestation]

And, I really like your idea about giving the player something for taking out a barrow/ruin, guarded or unguarded. Maybe just some gold, at least not as much as you can get from a goodie hut.

And now the (in my opinion hated) reasoning why this change will not be implemented... Clan of Embers can build barrows.

Spoiler rant :

Why is it that they should even be allowed to build barrows anyway? I don't think of orcs as the master necromancers that know of a way to permanently enchant an area of the world to spawn all sorts of undead beings without a bit of effort. I would rather expect that they made burrows that would autospawn goblins, goblin workers, and maybe once in a while an orc settler.

 

[onedreamer]

Why would the fact that Clan of Embers can build barrows make the idea not applicable ? They can build them but not pillage/destroy them, so they wouldn't be able to exploit them if that's what you mean.

 

[Gamestation]

Why would the fact that Clan of Embers can build barrows make the idea not applicable ? They can build them but not pillage/destroy them, so they wouldn't be able to exploit them if that's what you mean.

Everyone else would exploit them, that's why. Kael has even posted that that is why he will not make barrows give gold when someone else wanders on to one.