LK102, Deity, RaR, just win.
- Thread starter LKendter
- Start date
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
Actually It might be a LoN vote. Is that allowed?
We should actually discuss victory conditions here.
I like conquest or space.
We should actually discuss victory conditions here.
I like conquest or space.
It occurs to me that much of my reason to play SG's is to learn new things and to bounce my ideas off of other people. For this reason I think I am more willing to take risks and try different things. Sometimes they do not work out well, like the early Sioux war. We were not sufficiently prepared for war.
One of my reason for my current experiments with (early) war is to learn how to avoid the losses to a runaway civ that have plagued some of my more recent SG's. On the other hand, I don't want to make the SG unpleasant for the other players either - I feel I have made this mistake more than once in this game with decisions that did not hand off well. For this I apologize - it was not my intent - but it is also something I can learn to do better as well. Ironically, every time I have agreed on the no war strategy, the AI has attacked anyway.
So I don't want to make that mistake again. We will win if we wait - there isn't any real need to rush the game. While I feel we could win as I stated, I cannot be 100% sure. On the other hand, I would not be upset if our forces all get slaughtered. We can build many times faster than the AI at this point.
In any case that is where I am coming from. I probably overdiscuss things, but that is also a way to learn more.
Doc, I didn't quite parse your comment, but the test would be to lose no units without waiting for artillery with war in 3 after the pentagon completes landing the forces in the current 4 boats. I have a strong hunch that this is possible with the alliance, but no way to know for sure without giving it a try.
One of my reason for my current experiments with (early) war is to learn how to avoid the losses to a runaway civ that have plagued some of my more recent SG's. On the other hand, I don't want to make the SG unpleasant for the other players either - I feel I have made this mistake more than once in this game with decisions that did not hand off well. For this I apologize - it was not my intent - but it is also something I can learn to do better as well. Ironically, every time I have agreed on the no war strategy, the AI has attacked anyway.
So I don't want to make that mistake again. We will win if we wait - there isn't any real need to rush the game. While I feel we could win as I stated, I cannot be 100% sure. On the other hand, I would not be upset if our forces all get slaughtered. We can build many times faster than the AI at this point.
In any case that is where I am coming from. I probably overdiscuss things, but that is also a way to learn more.
Doc, I didn't quite parse your comment, but the test would be to lose no units without waiting for artillery with war in 3 after the pentagon completes landing the forces in the current 4 boats. I have a strong hunch that this is possible with the alliance, but no way to know for sure without giving it a try.
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
@Greebley, I will let you try that. I am not a careful enough of a warrior to do that. When at war, I try to a) end it as quickly as possible without excessive losses, b) prolong and fish for leaders (RaR especially).
Neither of those methods is conducive to minimizing troop loss, and while I use SG's some times to work on new techniques, I always try them first in solo games. I really cannot use the no loss method very well, as it retards my expansion too much.
I agree with using war sometimes to slow down a runaway, especially if you are mostly defensive in RaR. They will stop infra and burn many, many shields on inferior units, allowing you to catch up somewhat, as well as giving some really nice leader oppurtunities. In Zav2, We got more leaders than we could shake a stick at. (2-3 per 10)
I think AW, and the early war declerations favor the human moreso in RaR than in regular.
Enough rambling, I will set up the 2 builders for conquest. We will see if they can conquest the world in their 20 turns with the setup I deliver.
Neither of those methods is conducive to minimizing troop loss, and while I use SG's some times to work on new techniques, I always try them first in solo games. I really cannot use the no loss method very well, as it retards my expansion too much.
I agree with using war sometimes to slow down a runaway, especially if you are mostly defensive in RaR. They will stop infra and burn many, many shields on inferior units, allowing you to catch up somewhat, as well as giving some really nice leader oppurtunities. In Zav2, We got more leaders than we could shake a stick at. (2-3 per 10)
I think AW, and the early war declerations favor the human moreso in RaR than in regular.
Enough rambling, I will set up the 2 builders for conquest. We will see if they can conquest the world in their 20 turns with the setup I deliver.
sounds good. Get the crystal palace too while you are at it.
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
Where do we want the winter palace? I am thinking IP city as it is 1 of our 3 best commerce cities.
Is there a good town up north? There may be a big shield city and it would provide more reduction in distance corruption. It is a smaller effect than making the IP city better, but it is spread over all the cities in the north.
lurker's comment: You could play around with what city is best in the economy tab in CivAssist 2 (you have to resize the upper window to fit the winter palace into the visible part)
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
IHT: Since this will go on for ~30 turns, I swap some builds to factories. We are 3 techs from Mass P, so the ToE becomes a stock exchange, we will want wall street.
TUrn 1: Aztecs kill Greeks, we still have 7 turns of deals with the aztecs, so no war yet. Play the fun game of "pimp my city" with Gao, knocking a turn off the build time of the ToE. 1 more turn of improvements and it should be rocking.
Turn 2: More worker stuff, Gao gained a net of 24 shields.
Turn 3: India declares on Iro. We get the pentagon. Dehli builds the Arc De Triumph. India takes a city from the Iro. We build the pentagon.
Turn 4: We read a book and learn Realpolotik. Aztecs build Magellan's. Stupid error leads to a forest chop in IP city. I was clearing a swamp in another location, and it cleared the forest, nuts.
Turn 5: Little Bighorn is getting the treatment.
Turn 6: More upgrading
Turn 7: We lose 5-6 luxuries. Our active deals are almost up. A safe steal on India fails.
Turn 8: More improvements everywhere.
Turn 9: Aztecs and India sign an MPP. Aztecs declare on Iros. Our gpt is up over 300 since the start of my turns. At the end of my turn a safe steal goes badly, or well if you are greebley.
Turn 10: Memphis riots, whoops. More mass RR'ing. We now make 1631 gpt, and have yet to complete the winter palace.
The Good:
We make a buttload of gpt, researching is now a viable option.
We have a powerful military.
We are no longer sponsering anyone for any reason.
we have the pentagon.
A picture is worth a thousand words. This should show a few of LK's favorite things.
The Bad
We got 1 tech, which wasn't really needed.
We are no closer to attacking then we were.
The only military I added is a couple of dozen workers and about 12 rifles. I upgraded a few units but we still have our trebs. Our forces are ready to jump off at a moments notice.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK102_AD1400.SAV
TUrn 1: Aztecs kill Greeks, we still have 7 turns of deals with the aztecs, so no war yet. Play the fun game of "pimp my city" with Gao, knocking a turn off the build time of the ToE. 1 more turn of improvements and it should be rocking.
Turn 2: More worker stuff, Gao gained a net of 24 shields.
Turn 3: India declares on Iro. We get the pentagon. Dehli builds the Arc De Triumph. India takes a city from the Iro. We build the pentagon.
Turn 4: We read a book and learn Realpolotik. Aztecs build Magellan's. Stupid error leads to a forest chop in IP city. I was clearing a swamp in another location, and it cleared the forest, nuts.
Turn 5: Little Bighorn is getting the treatment.
Turn 6: More upgrading
Turn 7: We lose 5-6 luxuries. Our active deals are almost up. A safe steal on India fails.
Turn 8: More improvements everywhere.
Turn 9: Aztecs and India sign an MPP. Aztecs declare on Iros. Our gpt is up over 300 since the start of my turns. At the end of my turn a safe steal goes badly, or well if you are greebley.
Turn 10: Memphis riots, whoops. More mass RR'ing. We now make 1631 gpt, and have yet to complete the winter palace.
The Good:
We make a buttload of gpt, researching is now a viable option.
We have a powerful military.
We are no longer sponsering anyone for any reason.
we have the pentagon.
A picture is worth a thousand words. This should show a few of LK's favorite things.
The Bad
We got 1 tech, which wasn't really needed.
We are no closer to attacking then we were.
The only military I added is a couple of dozen workers and about 12 rifles. I upgraded a few units but we still have our trebs. Our forces are ready to jump off at a moments notice.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK102_AD1400.SAV
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
I have it.
After our initial good run of steal, the rest have been pretty bad. With our big gpt we could do self research if we chose. We probably want to concentrate on science buildings - we can build some of them in one turn.
Or we can go for espionage and keep stealing.
Or we can go for espionage and keep stealing.
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I took a look at the game. We are still building counselors in our fringe cities such as Sotouboua. I want this game wrapped, and culture will wrap it. The game doesn't have enough time to go to justify developing these towns. I am going to ask again to swap them to culture. We are only dragging this game out by not building the needed monuments.
We can get to Mass Production via research in 10 to 12 turns. This will give us the needed transports to wrap to get the artillery over and wrap this game easier. My vote is for self-research.
We can get to Mass Production via research in 10 to 12 turns. This will give us the needed transports to wrap to get the artillery over and wrap this game easier. My vote is for self-research.
I will vote for self research too. It is more dependable. If we get unlucky with steals it could be bad.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
I'm halfway in. Of course, I did rush culture in every single town that needs it at once.
But, this won't be over that fast - India captured Oil and Rubber from the Iros in the first turns, and they for sure have MGs at least now.
And while I agree the outliying towns are not worth developing, I *ABSOLUTELY* fail to understand why on Earth we still haven't learned how to plant trees. Out capital makes a lousy 139spt...
We either should have invaded 10 turns ago, or at least avoid the war with India. We still would be able to wipe out the Aztecs - but, without a better defence than Rifles, the Indians may slaughter us.
And in general - why all that stealing? We can research any tech India has in 3 turns. Stealing may be cheaper when it works - but with two unsuccessful attempts in a row???
But, this won't be over that fast - India captured Oil and Rubber from the Iros in the first turns, and they for sure have MGs at least now.
And while I agree the outliying towns are not worth developing, I *ABSOLUTELY* fail to understand why on Earth we still haven't learned how to plant trees. Out capital makes a lousy 139spt...
We either should have invaded 10 turns ago, or at least avoid the war with India. We still would be able to wipe out the Aztecs - but, without a better defence than Rifles, the Indians may slaughter us.
And in general - why all that stealing? We can research any tech India has in 3 turns. Stealing may be cheaper when it works - but with two unsuccessful attempts in a row???
Because it was 8-10 turns to research on my (and Romeo's) turn, and 3 turns to get money for a steal. We were suffering from a -641 gpt deficit. Our cities are well suited to making cash but less good at science. With that large minus in gold and without the science building our resarch was poor.
We may have also built some science buildings since my turn. The capitol could easily build 4 of them in 4 turns - we had practically nothing having relied on the Encyclopedia.
We did end up nearly even on the steals - 3 successes followed by 4 fails - a run of 4 fails makes stealing look bad, but it it was egually likely we would have gotten 4 techs from that run.
Note that we also spent alot of cash on unit upgrades.
[Edit: Agree self- research is the way to go if it is only 3 turns now.]
We may have also built some science buildings since my turn. The capitol could easily build 4 of them in 4 turns - we had practically nothing having relied on the Encyclopedia.
We did end up nearly even on the steals - 3 successes followed by 4 fails - a run of 4 fails makes stealing look bad, but it it was egually likely we would have gotten 4 techs from that run.
Note that we also spent alot of cash on unit upgrades.
[Edit: Agree self- research is the way to go if it is only 3 turns now.]
Out of curiosity why didn't we complete TOE? We could have probably gotten an exclusive tech (Sanitiation) for trade at the very least as well as some tech toward the Crystal palace. This seems better than the stock exchange.
I also think Memphis would be a good city for the Winter Palace. It has a lot of hills and mountains with grassland to support it.
[Edit: Reading Doc's comment - how could we have gotten city planning? We haven't gotten a single tech of our own other than the artillery run for the American war. You are going to be the first to be able to get a tech. It turns out I didn't need to go for artillery like I did - America was much weaker than suspected, but I didn't know that at the time]
I also think Memphis would be a good city for the Winter Palace. It has a lot of hills and mountains with grassland to support it.
[Edit: Reading Doc's comment - how could we have gotten city planning? We haven't gotten a single tech of our own other than the artillery run for the American war. You are going to be the first to be able to get a tech. It turns out I didn't need to go for artillery like I did - America was much weaker than suspected, but I didn't know that at the time]
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
I Thought that the Wall Street was a better deal than the ToE at the time. The ToE is still availible, but the Stock exchange/wall street brokerage combo is worth >100 gpt. I think the gpt is more important at the time than rushing out 2 techs.
I think the infra of that combo is worth more than the slightly faster 2 techs of the ToE.
Concur on the location of memphis.
I think the infra of that combo is worth more than the slightly faster 2 techs of the ToE.
Concur on the location of memphis.
