LK38 - PTW, Deity Challenge

Inherited 1200AD: Well, there is no prebuild. We can forget self-building Hoover. I'll do all I can to pull a leader.

I wake a cav and send him toward the German wastelands. Hmm, the rails stop at our farthest city. If I still had my 30+ workers on hand, I would have this problem corrected THIS TURN and maximize our chances for leaders. If I had even half of them, I'd only lose one turn getting this done. As it is, all sixteen of our slaves are sitting in the mountains, off building roads? Only five needed per mountain, guess the extra six are sightseeing. Our three native workers look like they just cleaned up some pollution last round. There are ZERO workers available for me to do anything, and next turn ten of the slaves will have to build roads so the other six will be able to get out to help. I'll have the equivalent of six workers available, that should let me build rails across... two hills. Well, it's a start.

I draft a round of infantry off the top of every city with maxed out population. I send three out of these out across the roads past the end of the rail line to do some scouting. No sign of Persian forces, but there have to be some in the region. Our ONLY chance for leaders will be to hunt down these vile dogs and give them the beating they deserve. I scout a little farther with one of the cavs. Ah, there's a wounded Persian infantry. Target acquired. Now if only I had had workers in place to build rails to ship some artillery to the front, this unit would be under attack right now on the inherited turn. Well, that's not going to happen. We have all of one elite and can't afford to waste it in a low-odds attack vs a 3hp fortified infantry on a hill.

Now where the deuce am I going to get some !@#$%! workers? Going to have to start with the big cities. Ooh, the capital will only waste some 80ish shields on each round I'm pulling a worker out of there. Well, these are desperate times. I would have started battlefield medicine instead, but the five shields in the box from a disbanded military unit prevent me from selecting any wonders to build here. Heck, if I DID pull a leader I couldn't rush Hoover here anyway until something else is built to clear out those disbanded shields. I could rush it in another river city, though, we have a couple of others. Still, if I was coming in with 700 shields sitting in a palace prebuild in Sabratha, we might have a chance. Oh well.

The Great Heist of ripping off poor Xman to the tune of 360gpt (unintentionally) actually doesn't hurt our rep any worse than the messed up deal with the Germans. Well, sort of. We had been on the road to recovery from that penalty, now we're back in the muck and this time we'll probably stay there. At least we got our money's worth out of this one. Since we're up to our necks in Persian Rage (TM) we might as well make the most of it.

I sign all four other AI's to military alliances vs Persia. This costs in the teens in gpt for the first three, and just pennies for the Mongols. The Persian Army: "First we're going to cut it off. Then we're going to kill it." :lol:

I then top off the tank on all our corrupt colonies building their temples at 1spt. For its own sake, this is a good thing to do if we're going to go for Domination. It's not bad if aiming for conquest, either, as anything that increases your power rating intimidates and/or provokes the AI's. Of course, the main reason is to clear the deck so I can start rushing some workers out of these chump change sites and not have to spend 80 and 90 shields apiece pulling them out of our core cities all round long.

I swap Russadir from aqueduct to courthouse. Courthouse will complete next turn, then I can change to granary, rush that, and THEN pull three or four workers out of this city by the end of the round. Reagan will be happy to know, I'll bring one of the last two warrior units home and DISBAND HIM in this city, to save one turn on the granary rush.

Speaking of which, many of the core cities are now in the middle of projects, so not all can pop workers next turn. And speaking of THAT, Reagan is right about one thing for sure: with this income rate, and no research rivals for Persia, tech steals are the way to go. We have the reserves in the bank right now to make an attempt, so I do it. We succeed! I take Electronics. If only we had a prebuild...

On the presumption that my leader effort is a longshot, I check and find most of our cities already have coal plants? Losing Hoover won't be as painful as it may look, more so in boosting Xman up than in what we will lose out on. I swap the river cities to hydro plants, even ones with coal plants already done. ... Wait. No, check that. Workers first. In fact, Utica is so high in pop, I'm going to pull a settler out of there and try to grab the open hole in the jungle with those two extra gems.

Hmm. I set a taxman to scientist and start min sci on Radio. We may not be able to wait, but Persia IS in communism, as are most of the AI's. (All of them? Didn't check). So who knows.

Remaining cities without power plants shifted to hydro or coal as applicable. Wait. Check that again, no police stations in highly corrupt locations? Sheesh. OK, police stations first. In fact, I'm going to be going into battle, I check for police stations all over our Republic and find none to speak of. Is my entire round going to be spent pulling workers, power plants and police stations out of the core? And no colesseums either, that's not good if we get into weariness situations. At least we have enough troops on hand to get the immediate task of leader fishing accomplished.

Speaking of that, I check our units. Lots of unpromoted rifles while we have 6billion in petty cash around? I mass-upgrade rifles, then discover we don't have barracks in quite a few locations, even some core cities? Hrrmph. I wake up and move most of the rifles. The ones in the ship on the island weren't unloaded? If Persia brought an attack with marines this turn, they'd sink in the harbor while the warriors did the fighting. I wake them. Unfortified, but that beats shipbound.

I could upgrade the muskets, but I hold off. Hrrm, still a Korean national in Paegam. That makes disbanding the weak units even more questionable. You don't take flip risks on deity lightly. Too easy to get burned. Even low probabilities have a way of turning up over enough time. Best to keep the risk to zero whenever possible. I wake a nume out of Hippo and move it down there.

Well, this is going to be a painful round for me. I sure hope there are some Persians around. I feel a real urge to beat up on anything handy. :lol:


1210AD: One carrier's worth of Persian bombers strafe our lands at Minsk, destroying two rail improvements.

As predicted, I make two tiles worth of progress on the rails (toward Germany, ignoring the Minsk problem for now). Persia has produced a settler out of its captured German city and is going to beat us to the gems site! (If I had workers, this would not have happened). I try anyway, sending our settler out along the road, but it doesn't look good.

With all our temples done, I start workers. Not QUITE urgent enough to rush them from scratch, but almost. I'll wait until they have one shield, then rush.

Several core cities complete projects this turn (units, buildings) and are put on worker production detail.

Haha, Persia lacks coal! They don't have a native source, and have been buying from somebody. No longer, with no trade partners left. I check potential buyers for electronics, there are none. Everybody's broke except us.

The Persian infantry has healed and now moved into range of Berlin. So notices our foreward cav scout.


1220AD: Wounded Mongol cav army attacks the Persian unit! NOOOOO! Don't kill it! Oh, whew. Only knocked two hp's off it before the Mongols were down to 1hp themselves and had to retreat.

With two hp's left on the enemy, I don't risk our elite. The vet I use succeeds and promotes.

lk38-elite.jpg


Oops, maybe that WOULD have been a leader if I had used the elite. Maybe. Too late now. I made the right call, mathematically, but if only I would have had workers, to lay the rails to bring up some artillery, I WOULD have used our elite vs the enemy with 1hp left, and might have popped the leader we needed. Oh well.

Now with all our slaves available, plus some workers peeled off our core cities, I manage to get the rails almost to the northeast shore. I find a barbarian camp? Ha! A chance to promote some of our conscripts. One does in fact get promoted.

lk38-1220ad.jpg


Yes, this area has seen some combat. :lol: All from the AI's, though, to this point.

I rush workers (sitting at 1 shield in the box) in half a dozen small corrupt cities, starting with Minsk. Also have much of the core set to peel workers this round, though some cities now actually past their turn at it and on to power plants or police stations.

And yes, the Mongols founded where they stood in the jungle, snagging the gems location. I take a runner up position on the hill where the barb camp was, and found our city there, with a coal in range. I wake a bunch of infantry and bring them forward, then upgrade all our muskets to fill in the vaccum in the back lines. I set another settler to production out of a city with a taxman that is about to grow.


1230AD: Persia now attacking Minsk with two carriers full. I must devote some workers or we'll lose the roads and really fall behind. The only good news is that they're also attacking Mongol tiles, so we're not catching the whole brunt.

Oh, and there was a massive pollution breakout, including a mountain tile at the capital. It would have taken almost the entire workforce I started with, to clean up that one tile. Seriously now, Reagan, what were you thinking??? "Rails are done, we don't need workers any more?" :hmm:

Ignoring the pollution for now, I continue on the rails across Germany project, desperate to find more Persian targets.

AHA! A whole transport's full has just landed on a hill tile. Ooh, marines. Guess they have Amphibious Assault after all, we better be careful about our coastal cities.

Well, I have just enough workers on hand, after ignoring everything else, even Minsk, to stretch the supply line to within two tiles of artillery firing range. JUST ENOUGH. Just barely.

Haha! OK, X-man, time to GET SOME.

TAKE THAT! Eat it, you !@#$$@! sons of !@#$!

:rocket:

lk38-1230ad-sod1.jpg


Yes! LOOK at all those leader opportunities!

As our cavs ride in, guns firing, swords swinging, I'm screaming at the monitor in glee that I get to KILL SOMETHING, thus venting my frustrations I inherited on this round.

Die. Die. DIE! :beer:


(continued...)
 
We have exactly three workers and sixteen slaves as I start my round. What is the plan here?
:smoke: This deserved one of these - I had no idea we were that low. I fortified the workers as you never now when the need will arrive and I saw no clear tiles to develop. The only time I ever shrunk the number of workers was in a 5cc conquest game with 5 cities and 100+ slaves from all the razing.
I have been hit with pollution hell of 5 or 6 squares in the same turn - our work forces could not handle that. I don't always see eye to eye with Sirian, but I can't blame Sirian for ranting at all on this one.
I want to join him in ranting.

Communism was gained, but no police stations. I build them even in the capital for the lower war weariness. I have to agree with Sirian - not good.

I read Sirian's report In fact, Utica is so high in pop, I'm going to pull a settler
WTH? I had to settlers available to poach at the right time - I load the game at the end of Reagan turn, and we have no settlers - we merge my 2 settlers back into cities :cry:


This is depressing; we have the highest chance of my first loss in the LK series since the insane 9 of 10 space parts in LK26 when we reached the capital.

I am stopping now before I throw my laptop across the room.
 
I send in vets vs the infantry and marines, saving our elites to attack the softer targets underneath. Well, heh. Two vets promote with no casualties...

lk38-1230ad-sod2.jpg


...while our two elites whiff on pulling leaders. The Persian settlers provide us two more units of slaves. Here they are, the enemy SoD wiped out, but... still no leader. And time is definitely running out.

lk38-1230ad-sod3.jpg


I've now got four elites with which to work, though. I leave the Persian ships alone, hoping they will race home and load up, bringing me more targets as soon as possible.

With rail line now sufficiently in place to wage war effectively, I take the core off worker production, and everybody not already done with their power or hydro plants is assigned to them.

We now have the cash for another steal attempt, while leaving the Wall Street principle intact, so I go for it. Success! The only choice is Combustion? They don't have Radio yet? Cool. They do definitely have flight, massprod and amphibious though. No sign of tanks. Looks like they need two techs to complete the current age. We're at least two behind, not counting the optional marines tech.


1240AD: OK, we're now officially Bending Over for the Persian bomber hordes at Minsk. They are also targetting our new city in Germany, which is something I prefer to having them sail up and target our core. Once we can get a dozen fighters into the action, we can end the Persian Bomber menace, and thus have a CHANCE to field a navy against them and even consider making a landing on their continent. That's a little way off, yet, but if anybody (ahem, Lee) wants us to be going for space race instead of domination, they should speak up soon. I'm feeling my oats now, and I hunger to feel the X-man's neck pressing up against the heel of my boot. :lol:

Persia lands a marine and cav with a settler, right next to our military SoD north of Berlin. I scream at the monitor as Temujin attacks them with his cavs. One dies and I celebrate, but the second kills off the Persian marine. NO! That's a leader opportunity lost! No, don't kill the enemy! Sit back and LET ME DO IT FOR YOU! Silly Mongols.

Well... our elite attacks after I bombard, and of course there's no leader. We have two more slaves now though. I can FEEL the clock ticking. This doesn't look good.

I rush another round of workers (with 1 shield in the box) out of our corrupt colony towns. Russadir is building its own workers now, one every other turn. I set one core city just finishing a police station to peel another settler. I take the settler from this round and found on the hill tile where the Persian SoD was wiped out: "Carthago Novo" it's called. Future site of the launching of the Invasion of Persia.

I pull our workforce back to clean pollution. Incredibly enough, after cleaning all of it up in one round (amazing what you can do with enough workers) I can actually dedicate a few to repairs at Minsk. Hmm, we also have stage one war weariness now. Guess all the bombing we're taking, plus my leader-fishing combat, is already up out of the minimum range. Well... Republic is sturdy, but it can't hold up well to a lot of artillery use, which is what our offense consists of for the moment. Getting bombed by about 600 Persian bombers each turn doesn't help either. (Well, OK, maybe it's only about 16. Feels like 600, watching all the animations).


1250AD: NOOOO! The Mongols wiped out the one Persian town in the west corner of the German Cape. Blah. I should have let the pollution simmer and told the Minsk peasants to buzz off, and completed the rail net around the top of Germany first, moved our artillery into range of the Persian town, bombed and gone leader fishing there. Now the chance is lost. If only I had had enough workers to do BOTH tasks, maybe this is where our leader would have popped.

With no Persian landings this turn, and no Persian units left on our continent, I had no combats to fight.

Click Next Turn, BAM. Hoover Dam completed in Persepolis.


1255AD: Well, that's that. I start Sabratha on BatMed. I make plans for power plants in all remaining relevant cities. We're not going to miss Hoover that much, really, as we already have power everywhere, and we'll be VERY SURE to have enough workers on hand for the extra pollution from all these coal plants, right? :D (Right??)

Rush another round of workers out of the corrupt towns. I set up another settler to be produced. No sense letting the Mongols grab the ground we fought and bled to take control of in Germany. (Well, OK, not a lot of bleeding, but still, we earned it. And if we're going for domination, we'll need to control most of the planet).

I prioritize reconstructing improvements at Minsk. It's borders have now expanded (all those temples I rushed on the inherited turn have expanded) and that means EVEN MORE TARGETS for all the Persian bombers. However, this also means more rails to shoot at for them, and they prefer to target rails over roads, even though the roads are harder to repair because you have to waste worker turns moving them into the tile, plus wait for them to get there.

I found a city on the site of the former Persian town, on the far west corner of German lands. I set infantry onto all the hills so that no amphibious landings will be made on hills to give X-man a defense bonus. This also blocks their bombers from attacking the hill tile improvements, which are harder to repair. PLEASE consider why I might station units where I have, before vetoing and randomly moving them around to no specific end.


1260AD: Persian bombers notice our new towns and divert some strength from the Minsk Raping to these new targets. I really really wish I had a squadron of fighters right now. Like, oh what I would do to those darn annoying bombers.

We have enough cash for another steal attempt. I go for it. SUCCESS! I take flight! Yes, oh yes. I'm SO tempted to build some regular fighters and get some action on my round, but I decide to set up the next player instead by building airports first. This should end the bomber problem sooner in the long run, but it is oh so painful to hand off for an assist on this one instead of taking the outside shot myself. :p


Late turns: power plants, police stations (with some weariness on hand, I even had to crank up lux to ten percent), airports. I didn't train units because we didn't have immediate need. I did upgrade our remaining cannon to artillery, though. A little pricey, but I made the decision to do it. At some point, we may still come into conflict with the Mongols. For the moment, they are our fast friends, and we're using our mutual RoP to both our benefits. I even repaired some of HIS tiles, on the road to Minsk, after I had ignored his tiles and had some workers WASTE THEIR MOVEMENT because I didn't see the rail connection had been disrupted in HIS territory. Oops.

Cleaning up pollution ate about a third of my worker turns as it was, and bomber repairs ate another third. I used what free workers I had after these tasks to, ahem, mine over a bunch of low-use irrigations.

I read Reagan's reason for irrigating over some of the mines, and I don't entirely disagree. But he's got several views that make sense "on paper" and don't pan, for various reasons, in practice. The units were one such, now the workers, and now also the irrigation vs mine issue. See, if you need 80 shields to crank a fighter in one turn, and you leave your city with exactly 80 shields to the good, then if (when) pollution hits, it takes you out for the whole turn, effectively wasting a whole fighter. It's good to have SURPLUS on hand. Surplus units for extra duty, surplus workers for those intense periods of strategic need that you can't always see in advance, and surplus shields in cities who have maxed out their tile usage for pollution-countering and for flexibility if you need to change what type of unit you are producing, and crank some new infrastructure or support some alternative war need. There is such a thing as trying to be TOO efficient, overdoing it, and actually being enormously wasteful in the process.

I probably still wouldn't have gotten a leader with all the workers I should have had available, but you never know. More chances at it would have been more chances. Maybe one of the lost chances would have gotten lucky.

On the last turn, Mongols snuck a settler to the last site I targetted for settling, and there weren't any alternate sites I saw worth grabbing, so we now have a SURPLUS settler in the capital. Please, for goodness sake, leave it there if you don't have a need for it. It's only 1gpt maintenance, and if a need for it pops up, if an opportunity opens, it could mean a lot to have resources on hand ready to go, and not have to wait several turns to find a chance to produce them anew. Some opportunities can only be capitalized upon if you're ready to react quickly.

My last act was to sign our four "allies" to trade embargoes vs Persia. If any of them make peace with Persia, I urge resigning them to a new alliance. Even if spaceship is our goal, we really need to keep Persia isolated, in Communism, and on the attack, even we too have to drop to Monarchy at some point. Oh, and Persia is mobilized. So it seems, since their culture has started to DROP. If they are mobilized, they can't start any new culture buildings, and that would include the UN. Despite our complete and total lack of any wonder building, we're in a winning position here, as long we don't fumble the ball or throw an interception.

Here's a shot of the North German Shore at the end of my turn. I did manage to lure one carrier pair into artillery range and send them packing, so the pressure at Minsk has been reduced. There is still heavy Persian bomber activity, though, and our first fighter just came off the assembly line.

lk38-1275ad.jpg


Lee, if you don't want a warring finish, now's the time to let us know, as I have moved us wholly in the direction of domination and warmongering as part of my effort to pull a leader this round.


LK38 - 1275AD


- Sirian
 
This is depressing; we have the highest chance of my first loss in the LK series since

Well, it's not all THAT bad, Lee. Really.

Reagan did some good things on his round. The, ah, inadvertant Persian Heist was just one of the boosts. He brokered stolen tech to great effect, and that has fueled more tech stealing, putting us very firmly now in second place. We also had a lot of power already in place, which... while letting Hoover slip was not good, we aren't caught flat-footed by it.

I have completely isolated Persia, diplomatically. Without trade, they are in for trouble. Mano y mano, the AI is not up to the task. Not with us having strong core production and all the other civs weakened, warring amongst themselves, and lined up on our side vs X-man.

Losing is still possible, but if I were playing this solo I'd consider this a position ALREADY WON. It's just a matter of closing the deal now.


Good luck, Gothmog. The game's just getting to the fun part. :lol:


- Sirian
 
Well reading your report on the empire status and workers was extremely upsetting to say the least.
Finding my settlers on standby for poaching merged into cities made it worst.
Then the whole obsolete units had me in a very bad mood last night about this game. One of the only times I get rid of obsolete units - huge artillery stacks and tanks have arrived. I will disband two or three artillery into a city for an instant culture building even during resistance. Of course, at the point the game it won and I simply need fast culture.

Reading wasting 80 shields to get a worker - not needed military, and other comments that just didn't sit right.

I will concede I overreacted last night on the lost game issue. However, I can't remember the last report that was that depressing for me.

The turn I saw Hoover being built after reading Reagan's comments of Hoover started before we had AT, I would have started a pre-build. Worse case, we switch to Battlefield Medicine (I saved if for that exact reason).

=======================

LKendter
Reagan
Sirian
Gothmog (currently playing)
Speaker (on deck)

Remember, 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
 
Here's a brief excerpt from testimony before the Sirian Inquisition on Anti-Carthaginian Actions:

Sirian: Why did you disband all of our warriors and merge so many workers into our cities?

Reagan: At the time I inherited rule over Carthage, we were in bad stead with our trading partners and had to pay cash for all of our future technology. Because we are a smallish sized civilization, we needed every penny available to either buy techs or put towards our own future research.

S: But, but . . . we were at WAR, man!

R: Is there a question there? Sorry, my lawyer made me say that. Anyway, although we were technically "at war" with Persia, I saw no benefit to actively pursuing it past the point where Jerxes was willing to discuss peace. Any cities we took from Persia were going to be horribly corrupt, at major risk for revolt back to Persia, and were sitting ducks for a military action before they flipped. I presumed we were going to continue our push towards a non-domination/conquest victory and believed we were in a position to do just that.

S: Shouldn't you have seen that our money woes would end and we'd be able to steal our way to tech parity?

R: Well, sir, my ability to see exactly what will happen in the future is greatly limited (100% limited, to be exact), so I had to react to the situation at hand. The great luck we had with the chain of events towards the end of my reign did, indeed, change things (without injuring our reputaion one iota, by the way -- Persia declared war and voided the deal).

S: What are we going to do for workers now without wasting shields training them?!

R: My assumption was that our corrupt outlying cities could supply workers when they were needed. The cost of rushing the workers should have been less than the gpt saved during the time we weren't using them. I will admit that I should have left us a few more, but that we didn't need as many as I inherited. In my defense, I have never played a game where that many workers were necessary at the end of the game.

S: What about the settlers? Why didn't you use them to settle?

R: The only city sites available were directly south of Persia, were isolated from our homeland, would have been woefully corrupt, would have likely contributed further corruption to our core, and would have been either easy targets for future enemies or would have stretched our defenses thin. The only benefit to them would have been hoping that uranium or aluminum resources were located there and keeping luxuries duplicative of ours away from the other civs. To me, the cost-benefit analysis of those items weighed in favor of not settling.

S: Why didn't we have a pre-build for Hoover?

R: I did not inherit one when the reigns passed to me. Persia started Hoover construction roughly half-way through my rule and, at the time, we were two full techs away, were at war with Persia, and apparently had NO shot at completing it. The fact we acquired AT at the very end of my administration was the only thing that should have made anyone even question why we didn't have a pre-build. If I had started one when Persia began their construction, and we wouldn't have fluked our way into acquiring AT, it appears I would have gotten slapped around for wasting shields on the pre-build because we would have had one very expensive Battlefield Medicine build, which a non-military victory would not likely have required and which a non-military civ could have used as a pre-build for the UN and/or spaceship parts.

S: Where do you propose we go from here, then?

R: As you so eloquently stated, you feel you could win this game from our current position. I agree that you could and believe I could as well. I further believe our team can win from here, too. I think we have the ability to win by a spaceship victory if Perisa remains in a war with the rest of the world. We have an outside chance at a UN victory if Persia is at war with the world when the vote is taken and we build the UN before they do.

S: Do you, too, feel the need to hurl a piece of computer hardware?

R: I did after reading the comments of certain teammates, but I am much better now (despite a night of fitful sleep because I kept thinking about y'all being unahppy with me), thank you. I hope we can all get along well in this and future exploits together.
 
I'm a little confused why you guys don't think that a Diplomatic Victory is possible. We are polite or gracious with everyone but Xman, who will probably be our opponent. Assuming that we can get the UN with a prebuild, I don't see why we can't win that way. I'm not saying that we should, but I don't know if we should give up on that idea. Also, we can get Radio in 10 turns by doing our own research. Not that we have that urgent a need for it, but I just wanted to point out that we are capable of researching Fission on our own, especially if Persia goes toward Rocketry or Computers first. He will also waste turns with Advanced Flight, I'm sure. We can also trade Combustion around for 44gpt from the Vikings and 93gpt from India, as well as both of their treasuries (around 1100 total). The extra money will help us steal Mass Production faster...
 
DISCLAIMER:

My foregoing post is intended as a humorous way of explaining, hopefully for the last time, why I did what I did. I am not angry at anyone for mercilessly :whipped: me, nor is the content of my message intended to disparage anyone referenced therein.
 
We needed several hundred shields ALREADY SITTING in a prebuild, BEFORE Hoover was started, to have any hope at all. This is Deity, remember. AI cost factor = 60%.

The way you do it is to use Palace Prebuild. If you get too close to actually building the palace, you swap the city to the next smaller item, in this case BatMed, wasting shields off the top but preserving 500 of them, then immediately switch BACK to the palace, with 500 shields still in the box. You keep a minimum of 500 shields on hand in this case -- or whatever is your best option on the lower end of the prebuild -- sitting waiting for you to get the tech. Yeah, you might waste shields by mistiming the start, but you ensure yourself the wonder, and how wasteful is it NOT to get the wonder?

You simply must -- must -- be far ahead before they even start it, or they will complete it first. Hoover, that is -- because by then they'll have factories, too. By the time you see them building it, it is already too late. ToE can be different because you can beeline to factories and power plants and have them ready, while the AI does not, and actually outbuild them to it. That's just not going to happen with Hoover if you lose out on ToE.


We could have had Hoover for sure, if handled ideally. We had the opportunity. However, even on Deity, there is margin for error on most maps. When Reagan said that he didn't think the nine obsolete military units he disbanded would be the difference that would cause us to lose... well, he's probably right. Only RBE2 and a few other games, have ever truly been close enough that one such setback could have lost the game. Likewise, having to build power plants in each city is only a setback, not a deal smasher. We're still in position to win, even without Hoover or in fact any wonders at all through the whole game.

On the other hand, the same logic applies to WHY he was doing all these moves. His goal appears to be increased efficiency, and that's a worthy goal. But a few extra gpt from getting rid of units, especially workers, and a few extra food to support higher than the number of tiles a city can work (due to overlap with other cities, or hitting size 20), is likewise NOT going to make a game-breaking difference economically. And where he saw no use or need for these units -- weak military units, surplus settlers and workers -- that might fit OK with his playstyle. It might work out for him (or maybe he's just new to deity?). I hope now he sees the other side of the coin, that there is its own brand of efficiency to having surpluses on hand, especially in an SG where other players may have different ways of doing things and might have uses for resources that you don't yet know about, and therefore you should not be getting rid of things other players took the time to produce or fought with the AI's to control, unless you darn well know exactly what you are doing.

Undoing something that somebody else has done to send the game in a different direction is called "the veto stamp". If you whip out that veto stamp, your results need to work out successfully (often enough) or you'll get some grief about it (in a deity SG, at least), plain and simple. My decision to attack Russia was a veto action. I took us in a different direction there, on my round. The attack worked out OK, so I didn't get grief for it, but if things had gone poorly and I'd left us in a bad position by it, players would have complained. That's the nature of being in the hotseat, steering the ship. You get held responsible for your decisions. :) That includes glory for achievements as well as teasing or criticism for goofs.

What was he smoking? :smoke: I don't know. :lol: I would seriously like to hear the reasoning, though. Especially in regard to pollution, combat rail construction, and radar towers. Reagan, have you ever been in much late-game combat? How do you get by without workers to support the advance of your armed forces?


- Sirian
 
I am not new to Deity and I understand the concept of a Palace pre-build and the AI cost advantage. Missing out on ToE was a huge contributor to our current situation. A further problem, as I have repeatedly stated, is that there was not a pre-build in place when I inherited the game and it appeared that there was no need for one. It is precisely because of the AI advantage that I, and apparently my predecessor(s), felt a pre-build would be wasted because we didn't appear to have a realistic shot at acquiring the techs necessary to build Hoover first. We could have infinitely cycled shields between a Palace and BM, but it seemed totally wasteful at the time because there was no reason to believe we had a shot. Please, stop ripping on me for that! Is losing Hoover going to be the downfall of Carthage? Heck no. Other power plants are adequate.

I solicited input regarding the approach we should take to the end game but nobody offered any opinions before I was prompted to play my turn. As a result, I kept us on our apparently intended path towards a non-military victory. If you will note, the warring on our part was thrust upon us at the very end of Lee's turn. We never showed any inclination, apart from the brief skirmish with Russia and our GA-triggering quickie fight with Korea, towards military action beyond homeland defense. Thus, I did not "veto" what was apparently our team's vision of our civ's overall path.

All of my Deity victories have come via a peaceful builder (UN, spaceship, or 20K culture) strategy. My military experience at Deity or any other level is admittedly very limited. I have stated that in numerous recent posts in the RBE threads. I am going to attempt to remedy that by participating in a Charis-led oscillating war game in the near future. Because that experience will come too late to help me/us in this game, if we are at war when my turn comes around again, I will gladly pass to someone more militarily experienced than I.
 
In my opinion, passing on a turn (for reasons other than time) belies the spirit of the SG. We are in this game together, for better or for worse, and there has been no passing because someone is bad at trading, or someone is bad at settling, or someone is bad at anything else. We've gotten this far together, and I think we should finish together. And really, let's drop the whole workers/hoover thing. We missed out and nothing can be gained from further b*tching about it. Everyone knows what to do in the future.
 
Here's a brief excerpt from testimony before the Sirian Inquisition on Anti-Carthaginian Actions

:lol:


Because we are a smallish sized civilization, we needed every penny available to either buy techs or put towards our own future research.

Actually, no, we didn't need every penny. That's the problem. You paid too much for some of those pennies, only to have 6000 in the bank and 1000+ gpt income at the end of your reign. Only SOME of that is accounted for in the broken deal and the tech broker. Only 300gpt of our 1000 income was coming from you having sold the stolen tech, therefore we still had 700 gpt coming in besides that. You paying 360gpt for tech sounds to me like you bought @2nd, which is weedy in its own right. We definitely did not need every penny.


Any cities we took from Persia were going to be horribly corrupt

This is horribly short sighted. There is a flip side to what we take away from Persia: Persia doesn't have it any more! That isn't taken into account in your assessment. There's more to a race than your own speed. If you throw nails on the road in front of the other guy and he blows a tire and skids into the pits for repairs, you gain ground. Dastardly? To be sure. But this is deity, man. DEE-IH-TEE. :p


I presumed we were going to continue our push towards a non-domination/conquest victory and believed we were in a position to do just that.

What push? We hadn't picked a victory goal yet. There was no agreement on which goal to pursue, and no edict from on high to direct us to pursue a specific goal. Yet you decided to undermine and close out the military option, even as a potential tool to try to slow down our rival who was way WAY ahead and possibly going to run away with the race if left to his own devices. Well, the way to interfere with his progress is... military.



(without injuring our reputaion one iota, by the way -- Persia declared war and voided the deal).

<edit> If Persia ALLOWED you to make a GPT-for-tech deal, that meant our rep was on the repair. They declared? Yes, OK. Maybe you're right. Maybe we didn't get any stain from them here. Or maybe we did, by getting caught spying. The other AI's would not make trusting deals with me on my round, though. So our rep seems to have been re-stained.</edit>


My assumption was that our corrupt outlying cities could supply workers when they were needed. The cost of rushing the workers should have been less than the gpt saved during the time we weren't using them.

The cost of retraining workers may just have been the Hoover Dam, in this case. We'll never know. And there were no 36 turns of upkeep savings to pay for the cash to rush, nor were there any savings from me halting production in our core for two rounds to peel the workers back off the top.

WHAT BENEFIT did we get from merging the workers? You didn't even do it in the coastal towns with less food, that I can see. You did it right in the core.


I will admit that I should have left us a few more, but that we didn't need as many as I inherited.

Poppycock. A possible war with Mongolia is still on the horizon, and still potentially somewhat out of our control. For that reason alone, there was defensive military need for every worker we had and then some. Every last one, on hold and on reserve for potential immediate need. Forts, repairs, radar tower... And when we need them, we'll need them NOW, right away, on surprise notice, not wait four turns to re-peel them out of the cities instead of building units or other must-have projects in the middle of a crisis.

Everything about your move here "looks good on paper". That's because you're not accounting for a whole pack of variables. If you limit your analysis to a narrow range, you can come up with a solution that looks good, but produces poor results.



The only city sites available were directly south of Persia... would have likely contributed further corruption to our core

Sorry, this ain't Civ1 or Civ2. Civ3 doesn't work that way, except under Communism.

It took me a while to figure this one out. Arathorn had to beat it into my poor head until the light came on inside. :crazyeye:


The only benefit to them would have been hoping that uranium or aluminum resources were located there and keeping luxuries duplicative of ours away from the other civs.

This is the fundamental flaw in your whole series of moves here. You only SEE certain benefits, but there are actually more there than you are seeing. Yet anything you don't see a need for gets the axe. :rolleyes:


Persia started Hoover construction roughly half-way through my rule and, at the time, we were two full techs away, were at war with Persia, and apparently had NO shot at completing it.

I would have nabbed Hoover. I could have gotten it. I've explained how, with a running prebuild.

Now we can debate the value of using prebuilds in and of themselves. Is it right? Is it wrong? Is it balanced? I don't know that I like the concept, it definitely does not make sense to the context of the game. However, Firaxis has explained that there were two ways to do this: allow project switching with NO penalties, or impose a penalty on switching projects. Sid Meier has tried it both ways and concluded that the lesser of the two evils is allowing unlimited switching. This lets the AI's "team up" on wonders through the cascade effect. Some of them will absolutely screw themselves in the process, but it doesn't matter as long as ONE of the AI's gets the wonder. You have to beat them ALL to get it for yourself, and that means beating their virtual teamwork. The game is how it is, and this is how they meant it to be, so prebuilding is just part of the strategy.

A proper prebuild would have gotten us this wonder. I absolutely could have beaten them the last 300 shields if I had inherited a waiting prebuild with 500+ in the box.

That's water under the bridge now, and I won't go on about it any more except to disprove any assertions that we were not in position to get this wonder. As Lee pointed out, in position or not, you TRY. You go for it, and if it doesn't pan you let BatMed complete as a runner up item.


The fact we acquired AT at the very end of my administration was the only thing that should have made anyone even question why we didn't have a pre-build.

Bzzt. Wrong again. :whipped:


one very expensive Battlefield Medicine build, which a non-military victory would not likely have required and which a non-military civ could have used as a pre-build for the UN and/or spaceship parts

The fastest way to prebuild the UN in this case, is to make darn sure Persia doesn't get to fission first.

That aside, there would still have been the palace for a prebuild for the UN. If you had wanted to preserve BatMed as a second option to keep the shields at 500 minimum, on hold, for the UN, then yes, you could have wasted most of the shields, turning them into an expensive whatever. However, you deemed it an impossible gamble not worth taking. So by not risking a few hundred shields, we then had to spend a few thousand extra on power plants.


I think we have the ability to win by a spaceship victory if Perisa remains in a war with the rest of the world. We have an outside chance at a UN victory if Persia is at war with the world when the vote is taken and we build the UN before they do.

OK. So the time has come to select a victory goal to pursue. We can shoot for making an early exit with a rapid UN win. That would be the quick way to end it, and yes, if Persia is our voting rival, we could be sure of winning the vote by keeping all our alliances active and them at war with everybody.

HOWEVER, there is the danger of a three-way vote, if the Mongols are tops in territory and Persia tops in population, with us third or lower in each category. That kind of vote, we could well lose. Thus, we may NEED to take over some land just to ensure a winning vote -- if we are going to go for the vote. So EVEN THERE you were smoking some nasty halucinogens to have gotten rid of the workers and settlers.


Lee... what do you want to do with the rest of this game? Sit back and try to coast to the finish line? :sleep: Or get mideival on these AI's who have been pushing us around for far too long now? :hammer: :lol:


- Sirian
 
We could have infinitely cycled shields between a Palace and BM, but it seemed totally wasteful at the time because there was no reason to believe we had a shot. Please, stop ripping on me for that!

I'm ripping you for trashing our workers and settlers, because you continue to insist it was the right thing to do to get rid of them. You've changed to "OK, I shouldn't have gotten rid of as many as I did, but we still had too many", so I keep ripping.

You're right, not doing a prebuild was a judgement call. I'm not upset about that. I'm notably peeved at not having the workers in place for me to go on the attack. There's absolutely no valid reason for those workers and settlers to have been scuttled.

I, too, made a judgement call, to lock us into a shooting war with Persia to slow them down, and to pursue a leader. It didn't work out as I hoped, and now we have some weariness on hand and have to run lux taxes to overcome it. Pricey, for a leader we didn't get and a wonder we have not built. However, I did also wipe out four Persian settlers, and three transports worth of Persian troops, perhaps enough to get them to mobilize, which is the best possible thing to cut into their massive, game-threatening cultural lead. You might see these moves as wasteful, but are they slowing Persia down more than they are slowing us down? I think so. As far as I can tell, they didn't discover any tech at all on my watch. Ten turns, no new tech? While we stole three techs from them and closed the gap on them?


We have a chance here to WIN this game, militarily. We're in position for it, if we want to go for it. You've never done that on Deity? Fine. I don't think Lee has either. Now's the chance to mix it up. If Lee wants to pass on it, and just get this thing over with, we can do that, too, in reasonably short order, by making sure we get to second place and stay there, for either population or territory, then take the vote and close down the show.

Lee, this is your game, man. You've given Reagan the impression you want to head for UN or space. I don't see that you've made such a choice, but either way, time now to decide. Please.


- Sirian
 
And really, let's drop the whole workers/Hoover thing. We missed out and nothing can be gained from further b*tching about it.
I agree on this one - I think Sirian and I have both made our points on the workers, junk military and Hoover. SG that loose team spirit increase the risk of losing. However, I will continue the discussion if it come after me.


On how to win the game -
At this point out rep is destroyed. We are still weak in workers.
Honorable fighting is meaningless, so we need to be pure evil :flamedevi:

Domination and war it is - with the Mongols! Why?
1) We need permanent oil source ASAP - can you say Taejon with raze and replace?
We raze Ulananbaatar (size12) and Dalandzagad (replace with city on the dyes to make connection harder to break). This solves our worker problems, and destroys all the dyes for the Mongols. They would never take a trade embargo vs. anyone, so you know they are exporting the dyes. On the first turn we can cripple multiple AI civs when the all switch from luxuries to entertainers :satan:

Our first strike is to take out rubble land, to avoid dealing with two fronts. None of the cities have expanding borders; the flip risk is much lower. Outside of Moscow with deserves to be RAZED.
Not to mention the fact that we take control of the majority of the wine in the world.

If we go this way - DON'T sell the Mongols Combustion - keep them away from tanks as long as possible.


We have a chance here to WIN this game, militarily. We're in position for it, if we want to go for it. You've never done that on Deity? Fine. I don't think Lee has either. Now's the chance to mix it up.
Uh - LK36, German conquest victory - ripped the world to shreds with Panzer stacks.

Another advantage to my luxury plan above - specialist = less cash and slow research!

LKendter
Reagan
Sirian
Gothmog (currently playing - still waiting for got it)
Speaker (on deck)

Remember, 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
 
Hey all, another weekend without internet access gone bye. I keep meaning to sign one up but haven't gotten to it, I've picked one out and everything! Woe to this former Oakland dweller.

First let me say: 'My bad on the trade to Germany. I am not sure if I knew and forgot or was just hitting the :smoke: too hard, but I was not aware that trades involving stuff were handled differently from gpt (other than if a trade route were eliminated gpt will still get through). I don't get to play much due to my hectic RL (I've played 3 solo PTW games, all diety, I'm now on my 4th + my two current active SG's), so some of these details have escaped me. I accept responsibility for that move, and am glad to have learned something. It actually explains a few things. :p

Second: I don't think this game was ever slipping away. I won most of my civ3 games as a builder, but in PTW I have two conquest and one domination victories - not counting K7. We haven't even reached the time of the huge human advantage - Modern Armor (3 movement is big big big). As long as you get there a few rounds before the AI and have cash for upgrades. That is as big a bonus as getting ToE+Hoover+Tanks 1st (IMHO). And since the AI seems to lose some of its pack mentality wrt techs by that time... you fill in the blanks.

Third: 'I got it'. I will play tonight and post in the morning. I haven't looked at the map, but assume that I will be filling in what I can of former German and Russian holding. Then looking to the North to see what I can do about getting Oil and some more lux. LK - I like the way you think :satan: , resource and lux denial is yet another reason why the AI fares badly in late industrial/early modern war.

Yours: Gothmog (or should I say g.o.t.h.m.o.g. ?)
 
General Mc Gothmog takes command of the Carthaginian Army. General Mc Gothmog hales from a little province in the south where his father dreamed of striking it rich with a bubbling ooze, oil that is, black gold. Unfortunately, although his father’s land seemed promising, only small amounts of oil were discovered and his father died a young and poor man. Young Gothmog was forced into the armed forces, but he never forgot. Meanwhile, in the land of Taejon, very nearby Gothmog’s hometown, Mongol citizens with similar dreams had indeed struck it rich, and now sold their oil to the Carthaginian people garnering obscene profits. After rising through the ranks of the Carthaginian army, Mc Gothmog vowed he would have that oil for his own. Mc Gothmog positioned himself as a nationalist and used the media to convince the people that the land of Taejon was rightfully theirs. Although the Mongols were old allies, he began a military buildup designed to make his dream a reality. The year was 1275 AD when Mc Gothmog managed to get a puppet president elected to office in a controversial election, yes young H.X. Shrub was president but Mc Gothmog pulled the strings. He knew that the outgoing government had made deals with the evil Mongols and those must be honored, for Mc Gothmog had made some bad mistakes in dealing with the former German people and Mc Gothmog always learned from his mistakes. First he must deal with the Persians, and then the Mongols’ time would come. So it begins…

The Persians were bombing Carthaginian provinces and that must stop. An air force was mobilized that shot down many Persian bombers and bombed many Persian ships, and eventually the terror ended. Mc Gothmog actually managed to turn the tables on the Persians for a bit and send the terror to their lands, killing many cows, but eventually the Persians came up with superior rocket technology that ended this turnabout. An old friend of Mc Gothmog’s has taken power in India (with help from Mc Gothmog), and offers to go to war with the Mongols. Not yet old friend, when the time is right then we shall strike. Now Persia calls up and wants to make peace, although the people are weary of war with the Persians and long to drink Mongol blood Mc Gothmog knows the time is not right. However, he notices that the Persian leader is arrayed in fine new cloths. Mc Gothmog feels envy, and knows that this portends a new era in mobilized combat. Luckily he was prepared. He activates a sleeper cell in Persia and funnels resources to them. His activities are twice rewarded and the Carthaginian army begins construction of the new devices – Tanks. Mc Gothmog starts the now infamous AMTAP policy (as many tanks as possible), and core Carthaginian cities crank out one every turn through mysteriously efficient use of production capacity. The Mongols have no idea about even combustion or electronics and so will be taken completely by surprise. He forbids the import of Mongol furs, claiming they are produced under inhumane circumstances. But has the foresight to increase spending on luxuries for his people. Mc Gothmog chuckles loudly to himself and his large belly jiggles with delight. But then just as his plans are about to come to fruition, Mc Gothmog starts to cough, then to choke, finally he keels over and is found dead many hours later by a custodian. In Mc Gothmog’s private papers an outline of his plans are found. All the Tanks are positioned in Leptis Magma, all deals against Persia are on the cusp of renegotiation, the Persian sleeper cell is positioned to make one more technology grab before peace is finally made, a law has been passed forbidding the import of any Mongol product and all oil reserves are being used on one last batch of Tanks. Although it was Mc Gothmog’s policy to rush workers/explorers/settlers to get a Tank every turn in core Carthaginian cities, Mc Gothmog’s plans point out that that is impossible without an active source of oil. What will come of Mc Gothmog’s plans? Will peace be made with the Persians? Will the Mongols oil be clamed by the Carthaginians? The year is 1325 AD, an election year, and who can tell? But even in death Mc Gothmog is not powerless. He has friends; yes he has friends in very high places.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk38-1325ad.zip
 
LKendter (on deck)
Will be at war no matter what speaker does.
Reagan
Sirian
Gothmog
Speaker (currently playing)
Building a military to cream the Mongols ASAP - with Persia so strong, this war must be quick. Please get ALL of our Mongol deals to end.

Remember, 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
 
I am pretty sure all deals can be ended immediately (i.e. before 1330 AD), but I left it to Speaker to be sure. When you make peace with Persia, check the lux slider. We did have a good bit of WW throughout the lands. With our oil now run out I would say war should be declared almost immediately. Be sure to position our troops in former German lands appropriately and use our Tanks judiciously!
 
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