LK38 - PTW, Deity Challenge

[Sirian]

* We already have a stained reputation. In Civ3, there are a couple of degrees of stain, but they are largely academic. Just has to do with whether or not you can ever get back into good graces. There really aren't many degrees of actual penalty.

* We don't need a reputation. (What are we trading for?) We need 2/3rds of pop and land.

* We won't take a rep hit when India is wiped out, at least not from a military alliance. Only embargoes against the dying civ or trading of resources with them causes a hit when a civ is wiped out.

* Getting the Vikes to declare vs us is only useful to slow the onset of weariness. If you capture instead of razing, that slows it more, though. I flat out DECLARED on Korea, without provocation, in forming an alliance with Persia against them. Weariness did not show up until the end of my round, then Korea was gone and so was the weariness.

* If you can get the Vikes to declare by demanding they vacate, or planting a spy, fine. If not, don't hesitate. Declare, then attack. Once you are at war, Persia WILL sign an alliance, but you'll have to pay for it with some gpt.


Good luck.

- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

There's no direct way to get a total of AI population, just as there is no direct way to get a total of their culture or how many tiles you have or how many you need. There is enough information that you could tediously add it all up if you wanted, but then that's what the bean counters were created for. Mapstat will add up all the eligible tiles, which you could do if you sat and manually counted them. Mapstat can see under the fog, though, and who's actually going to sit and count tiles by hand? Effectively, it functions as a trainer, a hack, calculating some information that is available to the player and some that is not, to "count beans" and provide information the game does not directly offer. It counts population, too, just uses the wrong measuring stick.

Enemy culture is not specifically knowable. If you wait until the whole world map is revealed before you open Mapstat, then you aren't directly cheating, per se. If you do it with fog left, though, mapstat sees under the fog, so then it's cheating (IMO). Apollo crosses the line on that one, where Mapstat does not. It checks the variables for enemy culture, among other things, which you as player could only find out about by spending a fat wad of cash to investigate every city on the map.

You can eyeball all these things with a rough estimate. Just look at the map, you can eyeball territory. The key is knowing that all coastal tiles are included in the domination count. Look at F8, you can eyeball culture. Population total is trickier. You have to understand how pop is weighted to large cities, that the small ones barely count. If the AI's are in modern age, with full rails and fertile lands, cities size 25+ and lots of them (especially 30+) then you've got a larger task on your hands. Pre-hospitals, this isn't a factor. It only matters for modern era domination.

This game, Persia's home continent is not very fertile. If we pay any attention at all to preserving captured cities and raising pop in Mongolia, we'll win the moment we have enough tiles.


- Sirian

 

[Gothmog]

Well I was just thinking about getting a final MA with Persia. I have heard over in the S&T forum that there is a reputation hit (or at least an attitude hit) involved with having a MA vs. a civ that is wiped out. Haven't experienced it myself though. If there were one, it would likely be in the form of other civ's not wanting to have an MA with you.

My plan is to capture - the war will be short and we will have a decisive advantage. I'll just plan for a couple flips. Actually, the war vs. Vikes will mostly be on the next player's turn.

Edit: I am a big eyeballer


actually I like to play mostly by feel. I don't anticipate any problems finishing this one.

 

[Gothmog]

Preturn: India is at war with everyone? OK, I see that we are to blame for that . I check production, change a guerilla and a couple tanks to MI. Take Hyangsan off a starvation diet. Rush a temple in Nampo by disbanding a couple of Arti. I decide on an initial force of MI+Inf Army+lots of Arti and do some movements. I am initially surprized that all our MI have already moved, then I remember that Sirian stole Computers during this turn so they were all upgraded during this turn. Well, I position everything so that I can load some MI next turn and offload a settler+tanks+Inf Army as well. OK Gandi your time has come. Click...

The People celebrate the coming of Mc Gothmog II, son of the famous General Mc Gothmog, with a Palace expansion. We are the happiest people in the world, and why not? Persia demands Dyes from us and gets them, my blood boils but I take comfort in the knowlege of our manifest destiny. India doesn't even counter attack my initial Settler+ force, I think Persia and Scandinavia are taking it to them in the east. I found New Sabratha in a nice spot, within Arti range of Lahore, lack of 21 square pressure, 3 squares from Seoul, and pound Lahore with Arti. Whoa, they are lacking strong defense! IT: Persia takes Bangalore. Then I redline all Lahore troops and come in with tanks - I take Lahore with no losses, 14 resistors. Rush racks in New Sabratha. Next up Madras, I move a settler into position with a couple MI. I watch as the vikes lose 7 troops and a cav army trying to take out a Radar Tower near Madras. The Persians build the SS-Docking Bay. I found New Rusciade and Pound Madras, then move in with tank armies. 1 loss, 2 retreats and Madras is ours. This puts us in range of Chittagong, which I auto-raze on the same turn. I found New Oea near the Dyes east of Madras and rush a harbor in New Sabratha. The Dyes come online next turn. IT: the Vikes raze some unnamed Indian city. People love the war! No WW, and another Palace expansion. I decide to take out Delhi without Arti backup due to its large cultural borders and the lack of any real Indian resistance (I do take out two Radar Towers first). Lose 5 tanks, retreat 7 but I kill 3 Inf+7 guerilla+3 cav and take Delhi w/Bachs. I mop up assorted stragglers, and take some Arti and Workers in the countryside. The rest of the indian cities are to the east so I take a RoP with the Vikes to speed things up. Using Vike Railnet I bomb Calcutta down to size 12 and go in. I take it with only one tank lost. IT: I watch Persian and Vike navies pound Japur. Then I go in with my forces and take it, a bad RNG turn means I lose 3 tanks in the process. I decide this is a good place to stop (8 turns) so I clean some things up and save at the beginning of the turn 1515 AD. The Persians did build the SS-Cockpit in the last IT but still dont' have Ecology and so have a way to go for Synthetic Fibers.

We not at war with the Vikes yet. India is now reduced to their little Island South of Carthage, which has two redlined Vike troops on the only available landing spot - so there is still minor flip risk. I already did resistor supression in all former indian holdings. There is still one transport in Seoul for transporting Airlifted troops. The rest are moving North. There are already two transports in a city up North as well (left from Sirians turns). I think we may be at level 1 WW now, but am not positive.

 

[Gothmog]

I took good care of our former Mongol and Korean lands and our population/area have felt the benefits. I don't think we will have to go after Persia, but I would wrap up the Vikes with all expidiency just in case.

up from 35 million, during my turns!


Here is a Screen Shot of the WarZone.

and the Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk38_1515ad.zip

Enjoy.

 

[Sirian]

We should have enough tanks to get the job done. Might be worth it to train a boatload of marines and go take that island.

Looks like you did a good job. Speaker's up? I wonder if he can finish us off? If not, Lee will probably have the last round.


- Sirian

 

[Gothmog]

I thought of marines on my first turn but we don't have the tech. I used all available cash on temple rushing so didn't try a tech steal. Now that most rushing is done maybe Speaker could try to plant a spy and steal Amphibious War from the Vike's to try to insite war. Anyway with all our Tanks on that Island a flip back to India wouldn't be too hard to handle - 1 guerilla . I haven't seen any Vike MI yet.

 

[Sirian]

Ah yes. I forgot that I passed up the radio-for-amphibious deal I had the chance to get from Korea, only to have them buy off Persia then declare vs X-man to cheat him out of his money. (Only seen the AI pull that move in the modern era, btw).

Ah well. Forget I mentioned it. Not worth the money to steal, nor worth giving either of these turkeys the dough in a trade. Just be ready to recapture after any flips.


- Sirian

 

[Speaker]

Got it. Will probabably start playing tonight and finish tomorrow.

 

[LKendter]

Go speaker!

Taking out the Viking should be enough to win - provided that we get enough temples out of our captured cities.

 

[Speaker]

These turns are taking forever. I've done 4 so far, but I need to do some schoolwork now. Hopefully I will be able to finish tonight. Oooooh, the suspense must be killing you guys...

 

[Speaker]

PT- The Indians have been eliminated, so no fear of a flip. Rush a Library in Madras, so it can grow. Rush aqueducts, temples, and granaries around.

1520 (1) I declare war against the Vikings and sign the Persians to an alliance in exchange for spices. I rout the Viking navy, losing one destroyer, but killing most of their ships. We are in serious need of a few transports to bring troops from our homeland to the former Korea. A ton of troop shuffling, getting troops into position for an attack next turn.

IT- Persian bombers go to town on Hyderabad. Wow, thanks guys. I don't want those roads anyways. Leader is spawned on defense and then killed two attacks later.

1525 (2) It is a lot of fun watching a Cavalry army fall without taking off a hp. Persia has completed 2 parts of the spaceship. Newly Founded Viking city is razed and I found New Cadiz right next to where it was, pushing back borders. Hyderbad falls with the loss of one tank.

IT- The Persian artillery (bombers and ships) are really getting on my nerves. Why does the AI insist on bombing every road in sight? Persia was very helpful in attacking an Infantry SoD (15 Infantry or so). That's it for a Viking counterattack? They have very little military to speak of.

1530 (3) Trondheim falls with a few casualties. Oslo, after some serious bombardment that takes out everything but the Aqueduct, Hospital, and Great Wall, falls. I use the spawned Mago to rush an airport. The borders of Kolhapur are causing me serious difficulty, as are the hills and mountains that surround it. I fall one tank short of taking it, but move a HUGE SoD of 25 tanks into range for next turn.

IT- Vikings move two carriers and two battleships into two squares that are surrounded by 20 battleships and destroyers. Smart move Ragnar. Oslo is taken back. Since all the roads in that region have been destroyed by the stupid Persians, I only had 3 troops to garrison Oslo with.

1535 (4) I take back Oslo, but the airport was never finished. Kolhapur falls and the Viking borders are pushed way back. I leader fish the Infantry SoD which has now come down off the hills, and the last kill yields Hanno, who rushes an airport in New Hadrume. WW ratchets up a notch.

IT- Vikings respond with...2 tanks.

1540 (5) Persians have completed 3 of the 10 spaceship parts. Heavy losses sustained at Odense, which does not fall. We are short on artillery, and with the Vikings culture, we just don't have the time to bring more over and move them into positon. I take many of our slave workers (from dead civs) and add them to our homeland cities. We have an ungodly number of workers and the population will help big time, especially in Karakorum, which is now a size 22.

IT- The roads around Stockholm are now gone. Thanks Persia. The Vikings counter with...3 tanks.

1545 (6) Persians have completed 4 of the 10 parts. Bergen falls. As does Copenhagen. As does Odense.

IT- Persians know an advantage when they see one. They require 68gpt to renew our Ivory deal. With WW what it is, we cannot afford not to pay. Persians blast Stockholm down to size 1 for us. Trondheim flips. Luckily, I prepared for such a moment by removing most of its garrison and stationing troops outside.

1550 (7) Stockholm falls. Trondheim has been drafted from about size 22 to size 15. This might take a turn or two to get back. Karakorum is now up to size 32.

IT- Vikings respond with...2 tanks.

1555 (8) Trondheim falls. It is now a size 12. Flipping was actually good for us because it is now much more managable. I put huge garrisons in Trondheim and Kolhapur. We need temples in those cities very quickly to gain the tiles in the middle of Scandinavia. Karakorum is now size 34. Very little fighting on this turn besides taking back Trondheim.

IT- Vikings respond with...1 tank.

1560 (9) Stavanger falls. As does Reykjavik. I disband a few captured artillery and redlined tanks so temples can be rushed. I should have thought of this sooner, as these cities are taking way too long to come out of disorder due to our stretched forces which do not allow us to have a big garrison.

IT- Vikings respond with...nothing.

1565 (10) Libraries rushed as well in Scandinavia. Their only remaining cities are surrounded by forests and hills, so getting there is taking a lot of time.

Conclusion- We are on the brink of winning. Persia has completed 4 of the 10 parts, and will probably finish at least one next turn, but I have rushed temples and libraries in the Viking cities, so their borders should expand in the next turn or two. I made a few risque moves, namely adding many workers to our homeland cities and disbanding a dozen or so tanks and artillery. I am sure that Sirian will yell at me for this, but we are in a race against time here and we need those borders to expand as quickly as we can. The artillery are all but useless now, with their only remaining cities being size 7 and under, and we have plenty of tanks. Manp'o still remains on the Korean mainland because at first I didn't want to waste the troops needed to take it, and later I forgot about it as the action heated up. Lee, you should probably take care of Manp'o next turn. I have figured out a system to move tanks from our homeland to the Viking land without using any movement. You move a transport into Sverdlovsk, use "L" to load it up with Tanks (or other units) and then move the transport down into Pusan, where you then right click on "Wake Transported" and move them over to Seoul, where you again load them onto a transport waiting there and then move it across to New Sabratha and again use "Wake Transported." This is why I did not hesitate to disband the tanks because they could be replaced so easily. Take us home Lee. I am a little disappointed that I didn't get to finish the game, but c'est la vie. I guess it is fitting that you get to finish, since it is your series. If you can, please post the save the turn before the game ends, so the rest of us can put it in our HoF.

LK38, 1565 AD

 

[Gothmog]

Speaker, good turns - no at all. I too was adding a few German, Russian, and Mongol workers to cities that could use the population effectively and I am sure Sirian will approve. I also disbanded a couple Arti to get temples in resisting cities. There are no absolutes in this game, it is all about context.

A couple other things:

In your PT statement you say that the Indians have been eliminated. Does that include their little island south of Carthage? No big deal but if that island is still around it was causing some WW for our people and peace could have been made with them (since we don't have marines). Otherwise the Vikes must have sent in some more troops, the Indians were still kicking at the end of my turns.

Also, I was using our airport to get troops from our homeland to Korea and then transporting them over to our Indian holdings (each transport could take 8 active troops over each round). Remember that each airport can airlift one unit to our Korean airport. That is why there was only the one transport full of workers leaving our homeland at the end of my turns. Towards the end of my turns I wasn't even using our full airlifting/transporting capacity as I started leaving a few more tanks in the homeland in case we ended up at war with Persia and wanted to eliminate their holdings on our home-continent, the rest of the transports were being sent north to be ready for an unlikely Persian invasion.

Anyhow, as you say - take us home Lee. Our manifest destiny is at hand.

 

[Speaker]

The little island has been taken. It is just us, Persia, and the Vikings (for a little while longer).

 

[Speaker]

I built an airport in India, but the airlift function was less useful to me than the shipping method I used because airlifting costs the unit its movement for the turn, while with transports I was able to get units over to India/Scandinavia without wasting their movement.

I wish I had known that those two transports were going toward Persia and not coming from it. If taking the Viking lands is not enough to win, and Persia still has not lifted off, we may have to rush some transports up there. Before we were to attack the Persian homeland, I would guess that we would want to a)sink their navy which is pretty much entirely in Scandinavia, b)take their cities on our continent, and c)take their small island. That should be enough to win, in any event.

 

[Gothmog]

I guess you are saying that you could attack with units the same turn they left the homeland? That would indeed be more efficient that airlifting, but I am not sure about the urgency at that time. Most of my turn all the transports were in Seoul transporting stuff from Korea to India, where I used the same technique alowing transport and attack the same turn. In my last two turns I sent one transport home to get some workers and the others to Persia. Then each turn the one transport left in Seoul could have moved whatever had been airlifted last turn to India/Scandinavia. But as I said I wasn't even utilizing full transport capacity on my last couple turns.

The last paragraph in my report describes the transport situation. But it aint no thang', I really don't think we'll be invading Persia.

 

[Speaker]

Yeah, I see it now. I guess I stopped reading a sentence too soon. I did, indeed, manage to attack with units the same turn tehy left the homeland. We got lucky that our cities were close enough that a transport could move back and forth in one turn, so it worked out very well.

 

[Speaker]

Now the suspense is killing me.......

 

[LKendter]

1565 AD (Pre-turn) - I switch one city to transport to try and nail that stray island at the bottom on the map. New Citra is formed claiming a couple more squares.
I find a few tanks to deal with Manp'o and send them over. Those same tanks will then target Punjab with a newly rushed transport in Inch'on. I am very much in every square counts mode. I want to end before Persia gets further on the spaceship.
I am glad to see 5 more libraries on the way, another good block of squares coming to us.
I disband a couple of conscript infantry to get a transport for the other island in one turn.

1570 AD - We get to Manp'o just in time as Persia 3 transports worth of units by the city
Molde and Alesund are captured.
(I) Watching the volume of planes and ships from Persia makes me very glad we don't have to fight them.
As pretty much expected, a city flips back to the Vikings - Reykjavik (size 12).

1575 AD - Aarhus, Reykjavik and Birka are captured.
New Nora is formed - a junk city to claim 4 squares.
Hitting enter should do it barring a flip

Game over [dance]

We spent 116 hours on this one.
Our score is 6154!!!!!!
I think that is a new high score for me.


Summary - I love a game where all players finish to the end.
One more turn and the vikings would have died

LKendter
Reagan
Sirian
Gothmog
Speaker

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK38-1575AD.zip

 

[Speaker]

Yay! A great game played by all. This is a high score for me as well. It has been a pleasure playing with all of you. Hopefully we will all meet again in LK38 2: The Search for More Money.