LK69 - Babylon - 80K challenge

[LKendter]

I think we each see different goals. My issue is that beyond universities we gain very little from new tech. My goal is to keep the tech pace as slow as possible. The reason is to lessen the risk of a space launch having to be dealt with. Cash to rush another temple is much more valuable to us then being first in tech. We have a good culture start, but we need to keep the culture growing big time.

My target is to buy at 5th, or 2 for 1 deal near the bottom of the trading order. We do want techs that are normally ignored such as Free Artistry. I really don't want any AI building an 8 CPT wonder.

 

[microbe]

My target is to buy at 5th, or 2 for 1 deal near the bottom of the trading order.

That would probably be too long to wait. 750AD is approaching and we are out of culture buildings in our core cities. I'd rather be able to build universities asap.

I don't think it's a difference in goals. I do agree with slow tech pace in general, but it doesn't mean we do no research at all times or not want to get techs faster.

 

[Karasu]

I do agree that slowing down the tech pace *is* a priority for us; in this case, however, I would favour getting Education sooner rather than later.

In general, I think a possible approach is to have prebuild(s) ready for the time a wonder-enabling tech is discovered, and try to duplicate (slowly) the AIs' research choices. We would need to be always alert to get most of our techs from trade.

Btw, I didn't manage to get my turns done yesterday evening. It will be tonight, promised!

 

[Karasu]

Here I come. Sorry for the absence of any screenshot, but when I post from home I still have to hang on a horrible 33.6 modem connection...

Pre-turn
Not much to do. Press Enter...
...and Uruk completes Sistine Chapel. Start Aqueduct.

Turn 2 - 620 AD
Found Ebla. Temple.
Our culture points: 5437

Turn 3 - 630 AD
Our culture points: 5573
Culture per turn (this turn): 136

Turn 4 - 640 AD
Babylon has completed Colosseum. Start Sun Tzu as a prebuild (Bach, Copernicus, you never know...)

Turn 5 - 650 AD
The Aztecs have started Copernicus. Printing Press is due next turn.

Turn 6 - 660 AD
Trade Printing Press to Vikings for Education, 122 gold and 1 gpt
Vikings, Aztecs, Mongols are up Astronomy but it appears not to be available through trade. So:
Trade PP to Mongols for 90 gold and 16 gpt
Trade PP to Aztecs for 25 gold and 17 gpt
Trade PP and Edu to Zulus for Gunpowder and 7 gold (apparently they cannot afford gpt payments).

Astronomy is already around, so I set research to Music Theory. Due in 10 turns at 70% science, +26 gpt

Since most of them have Astronomy, and the Vikings have already contacts with everyone, I decide to sell contacts too, totaling 3 gp + 12 gpt

BTW, we have no saltpeter -the Zulus have one to trade, but I see no point in getting it right now: our military is average compared to the Zulus, and we can always upgrade our pikes later on (we may really need saltpeter when it comes to building Cavalries, but then we'll need horses too...).

I spend a lot of money rushing culture improvements wherever it is affordable.

Turn 7 - 670 AD
Found Izibia. Temple.

Turn 9 - 690 AD
We are sneak attacked by the Vikings, who capture Umtata with a Berserker and burn it to the ground.
There is not much we can do, other than watch our coastal cities and wait for them to talk peace.

Culture: 6450

Turn 10 - 700 AD
The Vikings complete Sun Tzu. Everybody cascades to Leonardo and Copernicus, but none is completed this turn. I switch Samarra to Palace and Babylon to Leonardo. Hopefully, the AI won't complete another wonder in the next 5-6 turns.

Ashur builds settler. There is some room between Umfolozi and Zariqum, or in the jungle. Undecided, I leave him there for the moment.

Culture: 6603

Notes
Zariqum and Larsa will need an Aqueduct next.

We are making 153 culture points per turn, increasing at a rate of about 2 cpt per turn (roughly measured between 620 and 700 AD).
It's hard to make predictions this late at night, but I would not be overly optimistic if I tried to make one...

THE SAVE

 

[LKendter]

We are sneak attacked by the Vikings,

OUCH. Time to go overboard with city defense along the coast.

=====================================

BTW, we have no saltpeter

This is defintely a resource screw-over game.

=====================================

LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
SesnOfWthr
Ankka
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

 

[LKendter]

700 AD
I ship the Zulu 3 luxuries and $25/turn and get Astronomy. Babylon can finish Copernicus a far away 22 turns. Our capitol should not be used for wonder building since we can't fall back to a palace. However, I feel trapped at this point to not waste it shields. I am forced to continue the research on Music theory.

We are still sorely lacking workers as Babylon and Samarra will work undeveloped tiles with growth.

Our culture is good, but we have focused too much on it. Our military just plain sucks. We still have coastal cities defending by warriors!
(IT) GACK - The Aztec's complete Copernicus. I just wasted my time to get Astronomy.


730 AD
(IT) DOUBLE GACK - The Zulu complete Leo's.
The good piece of news is the cascade is broken.


740 AD
Babylon switches to University. I am surprised that we only waste 44 shields and this turns production.

Our elite bowman attacks and archer, but we don't get a leader.


760 AD
We clear out the first Viking stack by Nippur losing one AC. However, then are 4 more units behind that stack. We gain another elite unit, but I still don't have that leader.


770 AD
The Vikings will take straight peace, so this is my last chance for a leader. I promote another AC to elite, but no leader.

We ship the Vikings $38/turn for Banking and piece. That is a $9/turn discount versus the other civs.

I could get Chemistry, but I prefer to save our gpt for economics. Chemistry gains us nothing, while Smith's is culture AND economic help.


780 AD
I take pity on the backwards Romans, and ship them Theology for a worker.


800 AD
New Babylon is formed. This is our last obvious settler spot.

Rome is a non-player in this game. I ship him Gunpowder for another worker and $1.

The Aztecs get furs for $11/turn.

Summary:
Our current total is 8,280 vs. the Zulu 3,518. We have an absurd lead at this time. However, our CPT is around 167. At this pace we will win on turn 624. Since the game ends on turn 540 it should be clear that we still need a massive amount of culture to win. The good news is the culture is still coming along. We have a library in 1, library in 2 and church in 2.

We now can build banks. Our economy will be happy to see those built.

Bach's is pretty much locked.
Samarra has 399 shields of the needed 600 built up. After music theory completes in 4 turns I would switch Nineveh to a palace pre-build. I want Smith's to also be ours.

Economic research should be SLOW. We need plenty of time to build up enough shields. We can always speed up at the end if needed.

This area should get 100% irrigation. It will stay corrupt and get very little in the way of shields. On the other hand a pile of scientist / taxman from excess food would give us a pick boost.

Keep Ashur in pure worker mode. We still have way too much land to develop, and a ton of jungle to clear.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-800AD.zip

 

[microbe]

preturn: sell ivory to Vikings for 10gpt. Zariqum is about to riot and I hire a scientist, Music Theory can be completed one turn earier.

IBT Aztecs demand 22g, I cave.

(1)810AD: nothing worth noting. Just noticed we again irrigated a tile we cannot use. Maybe we can put a city there.

IBT palace expansion.

(2)820AD: ZZZ

(3)830AD: Music Theory in. JS Bach in 14 turns. I start min research on Economics and sell MT around:

Zulu: Chemistry+36g+5gpt
Mongols: 23gpt
Vikings: 12gpt+143g
Aztecs: 17gpt+15g

All full price.

We are making 125gpt now. All the 4 have Metallury, but I don't buy it yet.

I rush library in Adab by 52g, and university in Carchemish by 144g, university in Ninevsh by 140g. I'll start Palace prebuild next turn. We'll need 55 turns at current rate (11spt).

I switch Babylon to bank due in 11.

One thing is that Aztec's culture is rising..it has many big cities and will be a problem in the future.

(4)840AD: our culture is 9056.

Rush a temple and a library.

(5)850AD: Our culture is 9266. That's 210cpt. That's 337 turns away, barely finish it before 540AD. Things will speed even up when we get double culture bonus in more towns, of course.

IBT another palace expansion.

(6)860AD: I buy a Zulu worker for 116g.

(7)870AD: some big payment expired, we are making +76gpt now.

Zulu has saltpeter for sale. Our lux deal will expire in 3 turns so we'll exchange at that time. I hope other AIs won't get it instead.

(8)880AD: All AI know Democracy. Maybe we should revolt to it at some point.

(9)890AD: Vikings also have horses for sale.

(10)900AD: We can get Saltpeter from Zulu by 2 lux + 25gpt. Should we do that? Upgrading one pike to musketman would cost 90g. Quite expensive with the same defense value. Horses from Vikings are even more expensive.

On the other hand, Zulu may just demand the 2 luxes from us, so we really should just trade them away.

We can found a city 3 tiles SE to Larsa. Should we do it?

Also, I think we should revolt to Republic.

Currently our total internal revenue (from cities) is 243, with 75g corrupted (about 30%). Net income is 243-75 = 168g.

I go over all tiles and the distribution is something like this:
tiles with 1g: 97
tiles with 2g: 42
tiles with 3g: 4
tiles with 4g: 4

With Republic we'll have 97+42+4+4=147g more. With market/bank the difference will be even bigger. So the total internal revenue would be more than 390g. Let's say corruption rate is the same, we'll get net income at least 273g. That's almost 100g more.

We have 79 units. Under Monarchy we are paying 11g. We have 28 cities, 5 of them above size-6. So we could support 23+15 = 38 units. We'll have to pay for the rest 41 units and that would be 82g. So we'll get about 20g more. Our military is about the same size as Zulu's (and consider our relatively low quality units!), so I don't think we need much more units.

Note, the above calculation is rather conservative: (1) we are not considering the effect of market/bank. (2) we are not considering the lower corruption in Republic. With those in mind I expect our gain would be even higher (at least 50gpt more - that would be more than 50% of our current net income).

We have 7 turns left for JS Bach's. The question is whether to revolt now or wait until it's completed to shorten the window of somebody researching Economics. I would take the risk as Economics is really low priority for the AI, and revolting would add just 2 turns.

All things considered, I suggest we make the saltpeter deal and revolt immediately to Republic.

EDIT: Regarding the irrigation line Lee suggested, I've chopped the jungle next to the water to be able to introduce it to the inland.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

I've got it, but no turns before Thurs night. Would like some input on Microbe's suggestion anyhow.

 

[LKendter]

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (currently playing)
Ankka (on deck)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited form signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

=============================


Comments to follow later - quite a bit to write up!

 

[LKendter]

All the 4 have Metallurgy, but I don't buy it yet.

Metallurgy kills Zeus and gives no wonders. This should be at the bottom of our priority list of techs to get.

==============================

...university in Nineveh by 140g. I'll start Palace pre-build next turn. We'll need 55 turns at current rate (11spt).

I guess I should have been clearer. I wanted to switch from University to palace. The AI will research economics in less then 55 turns. Can we squeeze any more shields from Nineveh?

==============================

Upgrading one pike to musketman would cost 90g. Quite expensive with the same defense value.

A pike is 1-3-1, while a musket if 2-4-1. We would want to upgrade to rifles at some point. Your weak rating is a comparison of total offense and defense factors. Each upgrade two more combat factors.

==============================

(2) we are not considering the lower corruption in Republic.

There is NO lower corruption with Republic. The editor makes it look that way, but some of the killer players proved there is no difference.

==============================

We can found a city 3 tiles SE to Larsa. Should we do it?

Without seeing a map, I can't comment. I don't want any more cities near our core.

==============================

Our military is about the same size as Zulu's (and consider our relatively low quality units!), so I don't think we need much more units.

I still want a lot more units. If nothing else, I would like to disband the regular warriors and replace with MDI or pikes. At this point we really don't need warriors.

==============================

(8)880AD: All AI know Democracy. Maybe we should revolt to it at some point.

Also, I think we should revolt to Republic.

We have 7 turns left for JS Bach's. The question is whether to revolt now or wait until it's completed to shorten the window of somebody researching Economics.

All things considered, I suggest we make the saltpeter deal and revolt immediately to Republic.

I see the following from the above:
1) Complete Bach's before revolt.
2) Revolt to Democracy. If we are going to revolt, then I want the faster workers to get through all the jungle that I am praying has some coal. I don't want to go to Republic, then Democracy.
3) Getting saltpeter and revolting means that we waste 2 turns of the deal, as nothing is in progress. How much more are the horses? What we really need are more fast units. If I had a choice between knights and muskets, I would want knights.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

So just to make sure I'm clear, my goals are:

1. Try to squeeze more from Nineveh, if possible.
2. Disband some warriors and replace with pikes/MDI's.
3. Complete Bach's in seven.
4. After Bach's revolt to Democracy (Do we know it? I don't see it noted....)
5. Trade for horses if price is comparable/affordable compared to salt.

Am I missing anything?

 

[LKendter]

After Bach's revolt to Democracy (Do we know it? I don't see it noted....)

We don't know it yet. Maybe we can use our two luxuries to get a discount from the Zulu for Democracy.

 

[Arathorn]

There is NO lower corruption with Republic. The editor makes it look that way, but some of the killer players proved there is no difference.

As I read Alexman's formulae in
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619&page=1&pp=20
it appears to me that there most definitely IS a corruption benefit to Republic over Monarchy. It appears in the Nopt formula, the Gr part, where Republic gives a 10% boost (modified by difficulty level) to OCN.

Now, whether it's worth revolting for this or waiting for democracy or whatever is up to you guys to decide.... Come fully armed with all the facts, though.

Arathorn

 

[LKendter]

As I read Alexman's formulae in
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619&page=1&pp=20
it appears to me that there most definitely IS a corruption benefit to Republic over Monarchy. It appears in the Nopt formula, the Gr part, where Republic gives a 10% boost (modified by difficulty level) to OCN.

Now, whether it's worth revolting for this or waiting for democracy or whatever is up to you guys to decide.... Come fully armed with all the facts, though.

Arathorn

I wonder when that changed?
It was one of those type of write ups that I remember no difference from. Did I forget, or did C3C change it?

 

[Arathorn]

There was also a difference in PTW, I'm pretty sure. In alexman's very original study and write-up, he didn't notice it. It's a pretty subtle one and I don't recall if the details changed from PTW to C3C or not. It was fixed partway through his first thread. Some people noted some discrepancies and eventually they figured out what was causing it. Amazing piece of work, overall.

Also, there is no difference in distance corruption between Monarchy and Republic. Maybe that's what you're thinking?

Arathorn

 

[microbe]

A pike is 1-3-1, while a musket if 2-4-1.

I don't know why I always remember pike is 1-4-1 in C3C? Probably I need new glasses..gotta check again next time I open C3C..

I still want a lot more units. If nothing else, I would like to disband the regular warriors and replace with MDI or pikes. At this point we really don't need warriors.

Sure, but it won't add unit support.

Revolt to Democracy. If we are going to revolt, then I want the faster workers to get through all the jungle that I am praying has some coal. I don't want to go to Republic, then Democracy.

I agree Democracy is better, but it will be very expensive to buy (we cannot afford it now even after almost everybody has it). We either research it ourselves or get a monopoly tech and trade for it. That will be a long way to go. Since we are religious, I don't see why we cannot go to Republic first. The added income will help us greatly. For such a big country as we are, our economy sucks. I've never had such low income at this stage of the game.

If you are so strong against Republic, then I strongly suggest we abandon min research on Economics, and do max research on Democracy IMMEDIATELY.

3) Getting saltpeter and revolting means that we waste 2 turns of the deal, as nothing is in progress. How much more are the horses? What we really need are more fast units. If I had a choice between knights and muskets, I would want knights.

Horses need 50gpt or so.

 

[microbe]

So just to make sure I'm clear, my goals are:

1. Try to squeeze more from Nineveh, if possible.
2. Disband some warriors and replace with pikes/MDI's.
3. Complete Bach's in seven.
4. After Bach's revolt to Democracy (Do we know it? I don't see it noted....)
5. Trade for horses if price is comparable/affordable compared to salt.

Am I missing anything?

If you want to revolt to democracy, start researching it right now, immediately. Abandon the several turns in min research on Economics.

 

[Greebley]

lurker's comment:
I would think you would want Democracy ASAP so you can get shakespeares. Not only do you get the culture, but a size 20 city can build wonders much faster than size 12.

I would consider buying Democracy when you can get it at last or near last prices. I would not choose Min resarch (maybe max but definitely not min).

 

[LKendter]

I've never had such low income at this stage of the game.

It is a combination of tons of culture in junk cities that normally wouldn't build it, and we are still doing a lousy job getting our cities to size 12. I don't know why we still have almost no irrigated grasslands.

We can found a city 3 tiles SE to Larsa. Should we do it?

It may hurt Ashur as a worker factory, but I say yes. Worse case is we need to grow Ashur to size 6 to give a worker every other turn. Normally I wouldn't bother with this city, but with our 80K goal we can use the city. microbe.


=============

I got a chance to look at the game.

1) We can get Democracy NOW. Ivory, Dyes, and $59/turn to the Mongols.
2) We can put science to 10% to have economics available sooner if needed.
3) We can grow Nineveh ASAP - merge the next 3 workers from Ashur into the city. They work the plains, and 2 forest. We should net another 3 or 4 shields.
4) We need to get out of the 100% mines on grassland mode. Telloh needs at least two irrigated grassland to use a mountain.

I was trying to get water to Zariqum to let it grow faster to take advantage of the two hills. This was the "unused" irrigation that microbe found.

5) Keep Ashur in pure worker mode indefinitely. If nothing else we can merge the workers into our core cities to final get them to size 12. Our city growth sucks. We need size 12 cities now.

 

[microbe]

1) We can get Democracy NOW. Ivory, Dyes, and $59/turn to the Mongols.

Then buy it and revolt. Just remember to keep enough treasury to cover the 2-turn anarchy payment.

2) We can put science to 10% to have economics available sooner if needed.

Or shut it off until we are ready to grab it.

3) We can grow Nineveh ASAP - merge the next 3 workers from Ashur into the city. They work the plains, and 2 forest. We should net another 3 or 4 shields.

Agree. We probably should put more corrupted towns to worker?