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Lonely Hearts 4b - Imperial Frederick

Well, I almost eked out a diplomatic win--I had everyone except Wang Kon voting for me but Augustus and his vassal Hannibal, and was 61 votes short on the ballot just before Mansa Musa rocketed off into space. Apparently, Augustus had become his most hated enemy while I wasn't looking, and I earned a -4 demerit that just never went away even after complying with all his requests and lots of free gifts.

This was a really fun map. I may try to replay it some time later.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Frederick_AD-1910.CivWarlordsSave
 
If i go lib on the other hand and i lose the race i'll also haven't got much to trade and i'll be some distance from astro (though i can trade to optics with paper/edu in this case i still have to start on astro in this case), i will have used caste system so my empire will be less developed than when i beelined Optics (no slavery). Estimating if lib is on is a bit difficult,on average as a yardstick i'd say you must get it before 1050-1100 on emperor , before 900-1000 on immmortal to have a good chance of winning.
I think trading if you lose lib depends a lot on whether there is one runaway AI or several. The AI will usually have optics before phil, paper and you should get a contact or two before you get to lib. If it's only the civ that beats you, then you are definately worse off. Probably more likely that you will get to trade with someone and if you get two contacts that don't have edu, you can pick up all the astro prereqs.

I only use caste with spiritual leaders--I find slavery just too useful.

I'd be happy to play another game--I think this one was just too strong a start. Stone is just huge for the isolated start--you build the GW and need no units, and pyramids. On a normal start you need the units anyway, and the pyramids usually is a big sacrifice even with stone.
 
Essentially i agree Ungy, beelining lib and losing doesn't lose you all the trade neccessarily. On the other hand, beeling astro you may have a good deal or even the whole of astro researched by the time you would otherwise lose lib (although i doubt that myself). Also early optics can get you more contacts early (admittedly with nothing to trade)

The important thing i think is not to use caste system to get lib, Not having slavery can be really detrimental for the development of your empire at a stage it's really needed.

How about beelining optics/astro with the self research but building GL/NE/
+ run 2 scientists/pacifism. you can have your cake and eat it too i think.

Chances of winning lib are not that great , having machinery already researched the last step can't be bulbed but i i'll have early contact with the others with paper and (maybe somewhat later) education in hand. And maybe i get lucky.
 
With an SE I could definitely have Astro early - avoid Civil Service and you can lightbulb it. You can also lightbulb compass (probably not worth it) and machinery (definitely worth it).

When I rushed optics I was still able to trade philosophy - not to everyone, but too at least some AIs. In fact I got civil service for it.

If you prioritize Astronomy you will almost certainly get it first, and you can trade it for almost everything you don't have. And you can still lightbulb education while you are self researching the rest of Astronomy. By the time I had traded Astronomy, I was back in the research game. I wasn't on a par with the leader, but I could keep up. In fact its probably been the most efficient I have ever traded - every tech I researched netted me 2-3 others.
 
Well, I almost eked out a diplomatic win--I had everyone except Wang Kon voting for me but Augustus and his vassal Hannibal, and was 61 votes short on the ballot just before Mansa Musa rocketed off into space. Apparently, Augustus had become his most hated enemy while I wasn't looking, and I earned a -4 demerit that just never went away even after complying with all his requests and lots of free gifts.

This was a really fun map. I may try to replay it some time later.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Frederick_AD-1910.CivWarlordsSave


Did you try switching to his favorite civic and bribing him to do likewise? That can often raise things up. You have to be so careful with enemies - I like to start a war as soon as I can so that the enemies become my target victim.
 
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