Long Winded Changes (LWC) Mod

I had the same problem as Starkist. Before I saw v.06 I reinstalled CivIII. Now I see his bug & your correction. Use refer to v.05 on the link. Is that correct? I assumed you just didnt change the name. In any case, when I try to download it it tells me I lack access prvileges. What gives?
 
I've had a chance to play v.5. Very nice. I have downloaded v.6 but haven't installed it yet. One thing about the new resources. One, cotton appeared WAY too often. It was pretty much a cotton world. I think that bonuses should be more frequent than strategic or luxury, but that was absurd. Second, the new horse resource (can't remember the exact name), it was not as rare as you hoped it would be and how early I got it I would have easily been able to swing the balance of the game. SO far, it has only disappeared once, and then it moved into the square directly adjacent to it. Also on the note of resources, would you be able to change how much coal appears? In the aformentioned game I only found one source of coal and that dried up after a few turns of use. Coal is very common in the "real" world. And in the game, without coal means without railroads which is a very big problem even for very advanced civs. Thanks once again as I love this mod, take this advice positively, not negatively. Thanks
 
Sonunfarightmogon!!

Here's something I just found in my email:

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It hasn't even been 10 hours since I put the thing up! Bastards! Bastards all of 'em!


But on an extremely funny note, just those files caused me to snap the 500MB bandwidth transfer cap in like 7 hours :D :D :D

Lost a few things of minor importance (including the stat file, grrr), but damn. I guess I know how popular it was now, hehe.

Of course this is pretty much extortion, largely caused by warez sites but mostly it's just plain extortion. It doesn't stop it from being funny though.



Ah well, I guess it's back to the freakin' drawing board. I think what I'm going to do is learn Batch File (.bat) programming and use it to copy/create the unit animations and files. That should allow me to keep the version updates down to less than 2-3MB in size, which can probably just be stored here on the site.


It might be a day or two to actually learn how to do that (never done it before, but I'm confident that my ability to overestimate my abililty is not illplaced *EG*), but I'll try to have a makeshift update solution available by tommarrow.


Don't you just hate it when this happens?


[edit]Oh, about the above post.

The thing is, I can't freakin' control how much cotton appears. The appearance ratio is totally greyed out on bonus resources, if you can believe it. It's only available on Plains, and I think the problem is the game trys to balance things out by trying to make cotton as common as all the other resources.

Not sure what to do about that.


And for the new resource, you might be right. I might have to make it even more rare, and I'll definately test that more thoroughly as soon as I get these hitches cleared up so people can actually download the thing :(
 
:cry:

The news on the front page and this whole thread compelled me to download the mod.

Please, for the love of your god, someone host it somewhere!!
 
i'll put up an FTP when i get home, if someone could upload it then other peepz can DL it (got a 2 GB up limit or so from my ISP ) it does have a pretty slow up (5-10 kbyte/sec) but at least we can distribute it.
 
it was DLable from a site the maker put up, but his max data traffic was exceeded, so i am gonna put up an FTP or upload to my ISP in a few hours or so (somone will have to upload it for me first though), but that one will have to go down after about 1 GB (not so much data traffic allowed as i thought
 
Well first of all great mod, adds alot more interest to the game. Frankly i look for mods just to enhance Firax's sh!ty job on gameplay, so i think you did great almost everything within some exception (not that important)

About the bugs well i found out the PARTISAN unit and MERCENARY dont work first off all game crashes (because obviously their is no folder with files for them - i guess your forgot about it or something not sure) well i tried to fix it so i disabbled the new comming in 1772 tech Corporation i dissabled the mercenary but the game still crashes cant figure out why just seems its starts really to mess up on later stages of game.

Peace
 
Hey there,

I'm in the middle of my first couple of (unmodded) games at the moment, but I have a question for Plutarck about the mod.

Have you introduced any changes into the zone of control rules in this mod? If so, what have the changes been from the original Civ3 rules?

I'm interested, because having read other posts about ZOC within these forums, I think the whole issue is much more subtle than just a on or off decision... I was wondering whether you'd taken any of it as input.

I'm sure I saw something about this in a post earlier, but I have been unable to find it... I'd RTFM but I can't download it yet :D

Looking forward to getting hold of this mod when you get some bandwidth...

Cheers, :goodjob:
N.
 
vodka1983:

...at first I thought you were full of it, but I checked to make sure...and it turns out that you're right. I can't believe no one reported it as missing before!

I counted the unit folders and it was exactly right, so I figured it would work just fine. But it turns out I somehow accidentally selected Mounted Warrior and Nuclear Submarine folders instead of Mercenary and Partisan unit folders.

This explains the crash that had been experienced when trying to upgrade to the Partisan.


So we'll be skipping straight up to version 0.7 full installation to be totally sure all the animations get done properly so the game won't crash like that.


KloePoek: I'll upload it for you if someone that offered (name will be released once they've totally accepted so I don't prematurely force them into doing it if they change their mind :D ) can't get it put more perminately online.


nedski: I've kept the current use of Zone of Control in the game intact as it seems reasonable for the ones that have it. It's possible that not all units that should have it actually have it or not all that do have it should, but I don't know of any such cases at this moment.
 
Can't D/L the mod, which is unfortunate 'cause I want to see the new unit rules. (can SpecOps disguise their nationality? That would kick butt!) However, I can comment from the readme, so here goes...

"...having Scientists who can't read doesn't seem very sensible."

On the contrary, most early science comes from religious guides and mystics, many of whom can't read. It seems perfectly reasonable to discover currency before reading and writing.

I'd argue against increasing the tax collector effectiveness. Tax collectors get the improvements counted in their bonuses, so I'd stick to that. But the Scientist increase is much needed. (Why did they decide a Scientist doesn't generate more output with a University and Research Lab available?)

"Forest value in shields changed from 10 to 15."

This will increase the use of IFE. Do you have a counter for that? Perhaps increasing the time required to plant?

Love the Palace changes.

Perhaps instead of having the library reduce corruption, you should have a bank reduce it? That's my preferred model. Administration of finances makes cheating on them much harder. Plus, I think banks should increase luxury. People tend to underestimate just how important a bank is, but reliable transport of major capital resources, and the opportunity to earn interest is a big deal. The Medici banks were heavily responsible for the Renaissance, but they're trivialized in the game.

Police station reducing corruption -- yeah, I get the joke. But it's still the right thing to do. They *do* reduce crime, and that's certainly a big part of what corruption represents.

Amen on the changes to Leonardo's. In fact, I tend to think the Workshop should be even *more* culture. Bach's Cathedral is 5. Surely the greatest figure of the Renaissance should be comparable.

Wall Street -- how about adding a +50% to luxury or tax output? It's no secret that cities with major exchanges (New York, London, Tokyo, Toronto, Hong Kong) all have massive influx of capital based on trading activity. If I had my way, I'd add *both* tax and luxury from Wall Street. Building a financial trading center for your empire should be critical as of the Industrial age. You could offset the new powers of it by making it require The Corporation. (How do you have a stock exchange without a concept of public companies?)

While on the topic of improvements, I read elsewhere about Factories and Manufacturing Centers having a negative impact on culture. I very much don't like this idea. The game has few enough ways to increase culture as it is. To take away culture based on making a city more capable of producing it is strongly counter-intuitive to me. New York used to be a major manufacturing center, but it's cultural heritage is very strong. What about London? Tokyo? San Francisco? I understand what you're trying to express here -- but the game itself doesn't allow enough cross-city support for this to make sense. You *must* build factories and manufacturing centers in your major cities in late game if you want to build wonders. How can a cultural mecca keep up with out them?

Resources in general -- there's a lot of pushback on this site about resource wars. Personally, I *like* the limitations of the resources and the fact that you can be forced to go to war over them. I think that's a major new dimension to Civ 3. What might make sense, though, is to allow for earlier reveals on some resources, so that you can make decisions about what you'll need later. For example, instead of Steam Power revealing coal on the map, maybe Chemistry should (would make that research more useful, too) and perhaps Steam Power should reveal oil. That way, you can find the resources before they become quite so crucial to unit development. Personally, I *hate* the fact that I can discover Steam Power, then can't build railroads until I've found some coal, too. It's not like people didn't know what coal was before railroads. It simply wasn't important to have it until then.

I think if you made those adjustments, you could refrain from a lot of the other resource changes you've made, because people could plan better. The trade, diplomacy and expansion aspects of Civ 3 are an exciting new aspect of gameplay. Let's not immediately undermine them by reversing the strategic resource concept completely. Let's just allow for better planning by revealing the resources before you actually *need* them.

I like Jungles at 1/1/0 rather than 1/2/0. You should be encouraged to clear and replant them for maximum productivity. Otherwise, they're just forests with disease risks. Real jungles have a lot of unharvestable stuff in them that gets in the way.

Thank you for the civ-specific upgrade fix. That was needed in a big way. The current behavior is very frustrating.

Infantry rubber requirement: shoes. That's what drives it. Ask an infantryman how important shoes are. Don't fight the resource requirements for modern armies -- it's a crucial aspect of the new game. A civ *must* get those resources to keep up militarily. Just make it so you can see rubber sooner. Like, say, with Industrialization or Refining. That will give the resource deprived the opportunity to secure it before it becomes crucial to military upkeep.

I do *NOT* like the approach of making late weaponry available without Oil. You can run a modern mechanized force of any kind without Oil. Not a navy, not an air force, not tanks, not artillery. You just *can't*. Oil is absolutely vital to modern warfare. If you've gotten that far and don't have it, then pick a non-military victory path. Again, if your concern is that you can't see oil until it's too late, then make it visible sooner in the tech-tree. That way you can use cavalry and infantry to secure oil supplies in advance of being able to build tanks. That, I think, offers better game balance.

Transport unit change -- yuck. Put it back, please. *OR* make it possible to airlift settlers and workers. Personally, I'd prefer the latter. The basic problem is that transoceanic expansion requires manually carting settlers and workers across. Sending a transport with 2 less of those makes for a lot more transPacific voyages. And modern transport ships can cart 5000 troops -- that doesn't make 8 game units seem unreasonable.

But really, I'd prefer to airlift settlers and workers. Build a beachhead city in a faraway land, rush an airport, then airlift your further expansion units. Much better approach.

Tangent -- have you considered creating a C-130 unit? Aerial transport unit that you could load up, then rebase far away? That would be awesome. You could make it low capacity for balance issues. The real thing can only carry two tanks anyway. Just give it a capacity of 1. It can carry a single worker crew, or a single tank unit, or a group of marines. But that's it.

Cruise Missles -- the Tomahawk is actually a long-range cruise missle. Earlier models were much shorter range, though obviously much more than an artillery shell. I'd be a fan of 4 or 5 here. They don't have the reach of an F-15. (The part that sucks here is Stealh Bombers -- they should have a range of 16 at least. The stealths over Afghanistan now are staged out of Missouri! Let's hear it for mid-air refueling.)

on Government Types -- I'd love to see a government that increased production, but discouraged war, even more than Democracy. Sort of a Libertarian model, starting with Democracy, but adding 3/unit support cost, a worker rate of 4, very high assimilation and resistance, and no drafting allowed. I'd make diplomats Elite, but Spies conscripts as well. You can investigate cities and steal tech like nobody's business, but you are utterly incompetant at destroying a rival's supplies. Give it some thought.

Was that enough feedback for you? :) And I haven't even downloaded the actual mod yet!
 
How about, after the discovery of the Corporation, if you could produce a new unit, very expensive, called the "Corporate President." That unit could be set to have leader attributes, and thus could rush wonders.

I'm thinking, maybe, a shield cost of 60 and a population cost of 4. Something you shouldn't want to build a stockpile, but something to help non-militaristic civilizations get access to Wonder-rushing. It's so freaking hard to get a great leader when you aren't out fighting all the time!

Just a thought.
 
Ooohhhh... Corporate President. Oooohhh aaaahhhh. Well, I agree that that would be nice. But why would you want to build somehting that costs as much as some wonders, and cost population? You should make it like 11 population points and cost oh, about the same as a I don't know. But something that is average for the time frame that it is discovered in. The high population cost would create a slowdown in production afterwards that would prevent it from building at all after. It would also be only capable for cities over 12. Having that little population also leaves you more vulnerable to attacks (since no Metropolis bonus). My thoughts.
 
Flynn: First of all, I really appreciate all the feedback. It resulted in some consideration that made me change quite a many different things and unearthed some other bugs and errors.


I'm going to go ahead and upload the changelog at the end of this post, so check that for what I've come up with so far. But to the points I didn't mention in the changelog:


Scientists: I'm going to try and add new specialist types soon and the first scientist will be made a Mystic, later the researcher, etc.

Tax Collectors: Do they really get a bonus that the Scientists don't get? I'm pretty sure all the entertainers get treated the same way...but I'm not 100% sure.

Factorys etc: The main reason for negative culture is to show that those are the opposite of desirable and tend to suppress the currently used definition of "culture" (which is only desirable culture, not undesirable). New York use to/still does have alot of industry, true, but is that really considered a positive aspect of their culture? Most people want to go to NY for reasons unrelated to factorys, and tend to prefer the areas where there aren't factorys.

Even with Factory, M. Plant, and Coal Plant in a major city you should still get positive culture, but it will of course be noticably reduced. With the many other culture boosts that are available a culture victory may become too easy, and it fits that people don't move to Pittsburg because of the impressive smoke stacks.

The only real use for that culture will be for a culture victory as the places you build them in probably won't actually increase your borders in a useful manor, and I believe that culture reversion has more to do with citys bordering your city and not the citys culture itself.

In other words, there is a reason not to build them, just like there is in real life. Adding an unhappy face to some more wouldn't be out of the question, but I think it's ok for now.


Special Ops Team: It's stats in v0.7 will be 14 cost (the highest of any land unit), 18/10/1, Amphibious, All Squares As Roads, and can Airdrop, but made available with Smart Weapons. It's powerful, but does come quite late in the game. A sickly excellant combo with Transport Submarine for clandestine but effective invasions.


Jungles: That is a good point about jungles, but I'm not quite sure whether or not to change them. Hm...I'd like to hear some more debate on them before I change it, so I'll leave it alone in this version.


Resources: I too like the idea of resource wars (it adds a little excitement to the game), but the problem is with "do or die" resources where you have basically lost the game if you don't have them. The only two that really fit that are Aluminum and Oil, and I think I've trimmed that trouble a little while increasing the importance of some other resources.

In the next version I'd like to make Spaceship parts that require rubber require rubber OR oil (synthetic rubber is derived from oil, I believe), but I dunno. I think I'll just leave it as is since the spaceship victory is easy enough as it is. I actually want to make it a little harder with a future update, mainly by adding another resource.


Here's a question: Titanium. How rare is it compared to things like oil and rubber? I think I'll add it soon, but I want to get some idea of it's rarity in real life first.


Shoes: I just can't quite buy that without rubber boots that you can't field Infantry. Are leather boots really that inferior? But I do also hear it's for things like seals and containers for ammo, while before they used Tin which would rust. Which makes me think it wouldn't be a bad candidate for copying but making weaker/more expensive if you don't have rubber.


Transport: Actually, I fix both in 0.5 I believe. Units are now airliftable and the new Modern Transport fills the missing role of large capacity transports.

And does colonization still even happen towards the end of the industrial age? Heck, the AI manages to fill 90%+ of the available land on the Huge setting before I can even make it out of the middle ages. But I imagine military invasions is the main use that would be reduced.


Government: Good idea for a government, actually. I'll probably add it when I finally get back into an Adding position and not just Fixing, hehe.


Non-shop transports: I really like the idea of a transport plane and I'd thought of it back before I could actually add units as well as a Transport Truck, but there's one problem I recently thought of and that's why I didn't add them in 0.5

Won't the AI be unable to figure out how to use them? There is a Naval Transport tactic, but none for land.

But yeah, there IS an Air Transport strategy...probably will be the next unit I add, but I actually I'd like to wait until Air Superiority actually works.


Buildable Leader: Leeia Coca (wrong spelling, surely) sound good? Hehe.

However, I do like the idea of a buildable leader. However it would probably need even higher cost, perhaps 60 cost but maybe as much as 6 pop points. The leader is able to build the 100 cost wonders (1000 shields) for only 60, so a 400 shield savings would need a rather steep cost. Would be good to hear some more about this.

Personally I'd like a Unique Unit to be possible, or an even Build Once Per Civ unit. Of course that is yet another thing that ain't possible :mad:



Thanks again for all the input! Just imagine when you'll be able to actually play the thing :D
 

Attachments

Just my 2 cents on a buildable leader....

Someone mentioned what would be the point of a buildable leader equal to the value of a wonder.

Well, you can build multiple leaders ahead of the discovery of the wonder. If I had been a bully to everyone else in the game I'd be a little concerned about the UN wonder if I hadn't disabled it. I'd want to make sure I have a leader available just for that one.

As far as reality goes....well, I havn't experienced more than one great leader (been holding on to mine for over 20 years of war just to see and I'm waiting for the UN wonder in 2 turns). In reality, you could have more than one great leader per civ. Most of the Leader's names in the game had other Leaders mentioned living at the same time. Weren't Patton and MacArthur around at about the same time? Eisenhower too.

Just a couple of thoughts. I've been watching this thread quite closely. Keep up the great work Plutarck. I think you're the only one who is going to save us over the next while until "They" the unmentionables, get thier act together and get a patch out. But that has been discussed elsewhere.
:goodjob:
 
I really love the idea all along since you started the mod in the very beginning:)

In fact I have been modifying my own game ever since and in time I hope I can post one here myself (I am trying out with new units and new graphic stuff....an hour a turn on late game stages doesn't help the testing on my own mod:( )

I have made certain noteable change in my own game as in: Almost everyunit need iron once its discovered. Same goes for Oil. The only trouble is it then become like what was mentioned in the last post, a do or die resources. It would be good if resources can be accumulated once you connect it with a road just like gold and used as you produce the units. This will reflect the true world where cutting you off from an iron mine today does not mean you can no longer make sword tomorrow:rolleyes: This is very much true for gold as even if the AI kill all you road your amount in the bank is not affected.

I know this is just an idea (I can't find anything in the editor to allow this), what I would love to see is not only unit need resources to make, they need it to run :D One way of representing this is all unit that requires Oil will get their strenght halved or movement point halved if you run out of Oil (I guess only Firaxis can fix this). In fact, I thing Oil should affect the movement (German would have fare better in their last counter offensive in WWII if they have more Oil!!) while other resources like Iron or Rubber could drop the strenght to half or at least the unit cannot recover to full if damaged (representing a lack of replacement part or use of inferior parts)

In fact, if Firaxis is willing, it can even throw in the supply line thing where a unit with no link to a home city can never recover (a unit within says 2 tiles of a friendly unit is considered to be supplied? just a thought). I know I am getting closer to a military simulation but then again most part of Civ history are WAR. Its either you or the AI.
 
Now that you have whetted our appitites, I am hoping that you get the file download issues resolved SOON. For the first time since I started playing CivIII, I have been able to somewhat keep up with the AI at Prince level, and then crashed when I tried top build partisan.

Love the work you have done, can't wait till v0.7 is actually available for download.
 
I only read this thread around 3 days ago. I'm dieing to get my hands on this MOD. Please for the love of all things Civ, someone put it up on Kazaa. It will be quick to DL once a few of us get it.

Just post the name of the file so it is easy to find.
 
Read the changelog. Thanks for the nod. :)

What do I have to do to convince you that making the strat resources earlier is the way to go? It maintains the interesting element of resource wars, but allows resource stranded civs to have lead time.

Here's where I think the problem lies: When you play the earth map(s), you get an advantage in that its fairly common knowledge where a lot of the major resources are. Oil is obviously in the middle east, in Texas, in Mexico, in central Russia. Iron is obviously in most of the major European and American mountain ranges. And so on.

The problem is random maps, where you might end up stranded without access to a late-game-critical resource.

Now, there's two lines of thought on this: 1) make those resources less critical by adjusting the unit requirements, etc.; or 2) tough luck, it's the nature of the game and forces you to hedge your strategies for victory.

Well, I'm saying that I think there's a compromise. By revealing the resources earlier than the associated units, you give random map players the opportunity to plan ahead and ensure access to the resources they need for whatever strat they've planned. It doesn't have to be *way* early... just enough so that you see the resource, can deploy units to secure it, because a neck-and-neck civ already has units based on it deployed.

It's not unrealistic and it satisfies both basic objectives.

Some ideas for timelines...

Iron: visible with Bronze Working
Horses: visible with Warrior Code
Coal: visible with Chemistry (or Metallurgy, which would make this relatively low-value tech much better)
Oil: visible with Industrialization
Saltpeter: hmmmm... not sure here. Perhaps Feudalism? Maybe Engineering?
Aluminum: Refining
Uranium: Atomic Theory

Think about it. Let's discuss it. I'm really convinced that this is the best way to go and I want to convince you. :) The LWC mod is shaping up to be the most promising mod coming out.
 
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