Long Winded Changes (LWC) Mod

[The_Newbie]

Shouldn't cavalry upgrade to tanks? (offensive unit to offensive unit)

My ideas:
Add men-at-arms. Available with chivalry, require iron and are 4/2/1 (upgrade of swordsmen), costs 50 production.

Add Crossbowmen. Available with invention, are 3/2/1 (like swordmen but require no strategic resource), costs 30 production.

 

[Plutarck]

The_Newbie: The crossbowman might be a bit redundant with the longbow having 4/1/1. However I may just add it at a future time, and it's a good idea. I hadn't realised the crossbow wasn't represented in the game.

But I REALLY like the Man-At-Arms. It may make it into the upcoming version (I'm hoping to release it either late monday or tuesday). I had kind of noticed that offensive infantry was oddly not available in the middle ages other than the longbowman, but hadn't thought about fixing it. But adding it to chivalry is perfect!

My new unit will allow the upgrade of the longbowman in the early industrial age along with the Man-At-Arms.

Excellant


Oh, and on the Cavalry. I'm trying to keep a relative theme with what can and can't be upgraded, and here's the thing with Cavalry. In what way would making a tank from an existing cavalry unit be beneficial? A tank crew needs entirely different training than Cavalrymen would.

The horses are obviously not useful either.

Also tanks are very strong and it's prefered that they must be built from scratch rather than upgraded.

So the rule of thumb I'm using is that any unit which marks a major advancement or breakthrough in warfare or when the two units are otherwise fundamentally different (like cavalry and tanks), then the units cannot be upgraded in that way.

The same principle is at work with frigates not upgrading to ironclads, or ironclads to destroyers, or destroyers to AEGIS Cruisers.

 

[mithoron59]

Historicaly speaking many Frigates (and other military ships) were refit as ironclads. The image used in the game of the Monitor is indeed the most revolutionary design for the ironclads but it's most famos battle was with the Merrimac a confederate refit of a standard sailing ship.

 

[Plutarck]

I also forgot to mention that I _had_ given frigates the ability to upgrade to ironclads, but with my changes to the ironclad that would not have been a good idea. Ironclads now sink in the ocean (if I recall both the Monitor and the Virginia both sunk for non-combat reasons), and when you choose Upgrade To that means that unit cannot be built anymore. That would result in there being no ocean-going warships until later in the game, and that wouldn't make any sense.


On a historical note, the confederate ship was not called the Merrimac. The confederates capture a union frigate called the "Merrimac", which they then refitted into an ironclad and re-cristened the "Virginia". So in fact there was never really a battle of "The Monitor vs. the Merrimac", because the Merrimac was no longer an existing ship.


If the upgrade system was handled differently the frigate could be allowed to upgrade into the ironclad, but with the current system such a change would be highly undesirable.

 

[Plutarck]

It's DONE! Version 0.5 is released in all it's glory, but it's unfortunately too big for the forum file limit.


Working on finding a place to put it, so it will hopefully be up by the end of the day.

 

[Plutarck]

At first I thought of splitting it into seperate files, but then I realised that it would take 42 files to do that. That wouldn't work

So I uploaded to an account I had on Hypermart, and we'll just use that for the time being.

So here it is! Enjoy!

LWC for Civ3, v0.5

 

[Thunderfall]

Plutarck, how come your mod is sooooo big (20.8 MB)!?

 

[jcarkeys]

Didn't the Monitor sink because of a very large storm off of the coast moving with other ships? The only reason I recall that it sunk for was because it is so low to the water, the waves just got all on it.

Oh, and witht eh size thing, could you break it down to like pcitures, text, stuff like that. Being a 56 k'er it is a lot better to take little bites instead of the entire 20.8 mB all at once. Oh, and it looks quite good.

 

[Plutarck]

It's almost entirely because of the unit animations. I added it up and with JUST the unit pictures the zip'd size is 18+ megs! When the installer swallows everything together the size is 20 megs, and that's without even having it wrap-in the VM with the thing!


What I'm going to do in the coming day(s) is spread it out a bit or maybe with someone's help I could instead use a .bat file since all the animations actually already come with Civ3, they just aren't in the right spot.

Don't you just hate having to have unit animations?


Anyway, there is a problem with the mod. I failed to include ONE single folder, which is the folder for the Pioneer. And just it weighs in at 535,000 bytes, which explains why the blasted thing is so large.


I'm going to have to get really creative here, but I'm confident I can complain about it...err, fix it.



I reccommend using the download manager GetRight, which allows you to resume the file if it gets cut off.

Regardless, just go to the page listed in the first post and download the patch linked there.

*sigh*

 

[Starkist]

Installed the big mod, looked nice, however, several turns into the game, I got this:

CIVILIZATION3 caused an invalid page fault in
module CIVILIZATION3.EXE at 015f:00403046.
Registers:
EAX=00000000 CS=015f EIP=00403046 EFLGS=00010202
EBX=005c5818 SS=0167 ESP=00abfc30 EBP=01570eb0
ECX=0ad9877c DS=0167 ESI=0ad9877c FS=3fe7
EDX=00001894 ES=0167 EDI=00000000 GS=0000
Bytes at CS:EIP:
8b 80 3c 01 00 00 83 c1 58 8b 50 04 52 e8 38 71
Stack dump:
00000000 004063e3 00000000 00874438 0ad9877c 00000002 0ad98610 00000000 01f35ca0 005c5818 bff52d9d 0ad983f0 00abfc9c 00592afb ffffffff 004eab20


I tried again, same result. My folder is called civ3 instead of civilization III, so I copied the files after they were installed... would this mess anything up, since it's just the root directory? Anyway, I really like the mod....

EDIT: I uninstalled/ reinstalled Civ3 to make the folder name correspond with the mod, no change. It's usually around 2800-2750 bc when the crash occurs. I usually have two cities, a few warriors, a settler, a few workers, building barracks/coracle/warrior.

 

[jcarkeys]

Got it. After reading the changelo(n)g, I am very astounded as to how much time you have put into this. It looks very good. But my question is, "Can you load a new set of rules into a game that you are playing that is saved?" I am curious about this because I never researched Printing press (which is now a required era turning advance). Also, I have almost no resources and with the massive requirement on steel, I shall have trouble bringing my units from one continent to the other to beat my enemy as I have no oil so my most advanced naval unit for now is a galleon, and I am in the modern era. While I'm thinking of it, did you change oil's appearance rate as there is only one source on my map (that I know of) and it is deep in my enemies homeland. It would be impossible to take it, because my most advanced units that I can build are rifelmen and artillery. SO I couldn't build any armor (including modern which I have the tech for) or any advanced naval units except nuclear subs and AEGIS which is a good way away.
If you could answer those two questions I would be thankful. And great mod once again.

 

[Plutarck]

jcarkeys: Thanks, I have put a lot of time and thought into it

1) There are some changes which can be applied to already existing save games, but with the changes in the LWC .bic you will be unable to play old saved games. When you try and load a saved game Civ3 will inform you of the rules conflict, and it will put you back to the main menu without loading the game.

So to play with the mod you'll need to start a new game.

2) I've left all the appearance/disappearance ratios of Oil alone. The only thing I've changed is what units require Oil.

Note: In the current version the new unit Transport Submarine requires Oil to build, which is an error. It will not require Oil in the next version.


Starkist: I believe you're suffering from the Pioneer error. Download the patch on the download page listed in the first post in the thread, and that will probably cure you're problem.

If not be sure to let me know so I can try to track it down.

 

[Caddy_NZ]

i downloaded the mod but when i try and install it i get an error message say it cant find a suitable java machine or something do i have to download one or is there another way to fix this?

 

[Plutarck]

I had the feeling this might pop up if I didn't just include the java VM, but it adds 5 megs to the file size.

However, there's a simple solution. Just go here: Java 2 Virtual Machine

Download and install that and you'll not only be able to use the mod, but also you'll be able to run just about every Java application and applet there is.

 

[kincyc]

Plutarck:

couple of comments for you. However, I will start by saying your mod looks excellent, i have yet to try it, but based on the thread, it would seem to make the game much more playable. I am looking forward to downloading it. Keep up the good work!

First comment: Jet fuel is by no means mainly synthetic as you state in your readme.txt, it very much relies on a hydrocarbon base, which in this case, is commonly known as oil. Jet fuel contains more than 90 percent kerosene, which is a petroleum distallate i.e. oil. Apache helicopters, stealth bombers, and M1 Abrams tanks all use jet fuel. Anyways, the point of this is that any sort of flying since the dawn of air travel until the far future will require oil and lots of it. Obviously you can do what you will with your mod, but i would recommend changing it accordingly.

Secondly: Cavalry and Tanks are very closely related. Being that my original branch was armor (I currently serve in an air assault infantry battalion), my glorious branch of accession (armor/tanks) has its roots in the 'cav'. Actually, many modern armor units are often called 'cav'. While the technical training is obviously very different, the usage and tactics for quick moving, lethal units have not changed very much for the past 2-300 years. Horse calvalry units were and modern armor is used for shock and speed and cannot hold ground worth a damn. That's what us infantrymen are far. In fact, I would say the difference between a musketman and a modern infantryman is far greater in spirit than that between a tanker and a calvaryman.

Anyways, the point of this is to recommend that you have an upgrade path from cavalry to armor. I would make it very expensive, but there just the same.

finally, i would say add that all modern military units would require a new resource called 'paper' which could only be found in forests. Believe me, if the US Army ran out of paper, we would cease to function!!!

thanks for your hard work and keep it up!

-k

 

[Starkist]

Originally posted by Plutarck
Starkist: I believe you're suffering from the Pioneer error. Download the patch on the download page listed in the first post in the thread, and that will probably cure you're problem.[/B]

I got the patch and eerything is fixed. I've been playing for a while, that's why I haven't responded until now. Anyway, the problem must have been that the Americans or Zulus or somebody built a pioneer, even though my own civ didn't. Thanks for all your work!

 

[Faldrath]

Good God, Plutarck! I'm reading your changelog file, and I can't believe how much you have changed! I think I'll email Firaxis and tell them not only to include your modpack in the upcoming patch, but to take the game out of the shelves, repack them with a new updated manual, then release it again as Civ4 And, of course, I'll tell them to hire you.

There were two things I didn't like, though. Colonialism and Imperialism as forms of government. Civilization has always used as a criterion of different governments different forms of choosing the leaders. Anarchy, despotism, monarchy, republic, communism, democracy, and fundamentalism are different mainly because the leaders are chosen differently (I know this is arguable for Republic/Democracy). Colonialism and Imperialism are not government forms - they are policies a government, be it a Monarchy, a Republic or a Democracy, may choose to follow.

Perhaps a Small Wonder with some of their characteristics would be more appropriate, something that would decrease war weariness and add some free units. I don't know what wonder that might be. Frankly, coming from a colonized nation myself (Brazil), I fail to see good things about colonialism/imperialism. Perhaps something like the East India Company. But that should have an economical effect as well, and I'm not sure what that might be.

Tell me what you think

Oh yeah, I'm only talking about my gripes because I absolutely love the rest

 

[jcarkeys]

I'm not sure if this is bad or whatever, but bear with me. I extracted the files to a temporary location to view the .bic. I was going through it and was looking at the different units. THen I got to one (can't remember) but it had unit icon number 84. I tried moving to a different unit, but it was asking for an integer from 1 to 83. It wouldn't let me move without changing it. Now my question is, does that work correctly in the game, or does it screw up? I haven't had time to check since I haven't finished my other game, but I figured I should ask before I install it. When is the new version you have hinted at coming out?

 

[Plutarck]

Just released version 0.6! Mostly bug fixes, so check the first post in this thread for details.

NOTE: You won't need a virtual machine them from now on. Due to some odd errors and possible compatability concerns I've just had the installer package the VM right along with it.


jcarkeys: Just now, but no real "additions" for now. Making sure everything is in fully working order as-is first.

The reason for that error is because the editor is looking at the default units_32.pcx file, which has only so many slots. Using PSP I added more slots to the image, so unless you go ahead and install that particular file the editor's use if icons will be screwy.

That at least works fine after it's installed


Faldrath:

Thanks!


That is a very interesting point you make about the governments, and I hadn't ever heard that before. Hmm...I like the role the two governments fill, but perhaps finding a different name wouldn't be a bad idea.

I suppose an Imperialist government is kind of like having a Capitalist government. It makes sense historically (1500 to 1700 AD is often called the Imperial Age), but they do deviate from the government form of Civ3 itself. I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing, however

But it's good to have it in mind. I'd like to hear some more opinions about that also, so if anyone has something to say feel free to jump in. The more the merrier

Btw: Colonialism/Imperialism was far better for the host empire than for the colonised one, hehe.

I'm glad you like the changes, and thanks for the compliments


Starkist: Great! Glad it's working smoothly and that you're enjoying it


kincyc:

Thanks!

I'll definately take the bit about oil under advisement and at least change that bit on oil. However, I will most likely leave the requirements for oil off the post synthetic units due mostly to game balance. Also, while oil is clearly used in nearly all vehicles of any sort now adays, it doesn't have to be; oil is just cheaper than the alternatives, among other reasons.


On cavalry, that does concur with what I've been hearing lately. However, the problem is that there is no way to alter the cost for upgrading. The only factor seems to be the cost difference in the 2 units (at least, that's the main one).

The main reason I leave cavalry as the end of the line is otherwise you could put together a significant army, discover the appropriate tech, then next turn you have a full invasion force full of tanks that came out of no where.

If the upgrade cost was more editable I'd probably be in favor of it, but as-is it just wouldn't seem quite right and could allow a "Tank Rush" tactic where an opponent builds up a full force of cavalry, saves up cash throughout the game, then suddenly explodes out with a full invasion force worth of tanks.

It is also nice for historical accuracy that Cavalry will probably end up fighting alongside Tanks on the battlefield. If Cavs could be upgraded that would happen only if you were short on gold.

And lastly, being forced to create certain "landmark" units from scratch rather than upgrading them does nicely to prevent a "race to [strong unit here]" scenario from occurring. Then again, so does the flaky combat system, but that's neither here nor there


Paper is a good idea for a resource though. "Allows creation of: Post Office, Politician, Paper Cuts"

 

[Runestar]

Plutarck,

Can't get to your download page.

Runestar