Lost Eden development thread

[Kilkakon]

That sounds good.

I may have a go at making Lukas' outfit more original but I shall first install AoE1 and get the Asian barracks off that for this Assassin dude. There's still that Nidoqueen to figure out as well.

I think either -1 ECONOMY or -1 EFFICIENCY

Okay, we'll drop the -1 Economy.

What is ARENA equivalent to?

Brood Pit.

BTW, until you have exceeded the bureaucracy limit, the first citizen in a base at Transcend is a worker, not a drone.

Ah fair enough. I was trying to ICS as I knew that I had to try and match the AIs' growth rate. Just thought that it would be nice to post my attempt.

 

[vyeh]

Brood Pit.

Brood Pit is only good if you are building or using native life. Since The True Arena doesn't have a PLANET bonus, how soon do they get to the tech for building native life?

 

[Kilkakon]

Same as everybody else -- they need to go for Inter-Species Society, which is tier 2.

Don't forget that the Brood Pit gives ++POLICE.

 

[vyeh]

Then I think the True Arena is balanced.

 

[Kilkakon]

Okay, for anybody following this thread... it was locked accidently. Oops. It's all good now.

The mod is coming along pretty well. Combat is getting pretty smoothed out. The newer factions are a bit on the unbalanced side at the moment (Rangers are very tough), but we'll sort that out soon. I am yet to figure out a good faction to fit the Nidoqueen leader though. I am still waiting on my friend to finish the sketches so I can finish the graphics for the original leaders; I am confident they will be done well.

The current stats for the Assassins are as follows:
Deadly Assassins
+2 PROBE: {Experts in stealthy movement}
+1 RESEARCH: {Places value on training and studying}
-1 SUPPORT: {Prefers few elite units over "grunt" warriors}
{May not value Wealth.}

The Merchants now have a 5% interest bonus instead of a commerce bonus.

Also, has anybody ever got the COMMLINK bonus to work properly?

 

[vyeh]

Okay, for anybody following this thread... it was locked accidently. Oops. It's all good now.

I thought you had taken Father's Day off.

The mod is coming along pretty well. Combat is getting pretty smoothed out. The newer factions are a bit on the unbalanced side at the moment (Rangers are very tough), but we'll sort that out soon. I am yet to figure out a good faction to fit the Nidoqueen leader though.

Could you post image of Nidoqueen (or at least head)?

I am still waiting on my friend to finish the sketches so I can finish the graphics for the original leaders; I am confident they will be done well.

These are the leaderheads?

The current stats for the Assassins are as follows:
Deadly Assassins
+2 PROBE: {Experts in stealthy movement}
+1 RESEARCH: {Places value on training and studying}
-1 SUPPORT: {Prefers few elite units over "grunt" warriors}
{May not value Wealth.}

This looks pretty good. How about a free probe team at the beginning?

The Merchants now have a 5% interest bonus instead of a commerce bonus.

That can be pretty powerful.

Also, has anybody ever got the COMMLINK bonus to work properly?

What is the COMMLINK bonus?

 

[Kilkakon]

I thought you had taken Father's Day off.

It wasn't Father's Day over here.

Could you post image of Nidoqueen (or at least head)?

It's pretty much this done in the same art style as the others with nipples and female parts.

These are the leaderheads?

Yes and no; they are mostly units (the Charmanders, Squirtle, Wartortle), some of them double up as leaderheads though (Darrus, Arko). Rakash and Saig get their own leaderhead pics that aren't shared with a unit.

This looks pretty good. How about a free probe team at the beginning?

Those actually come a bit later on in the game, the same tech as Ballistae/Pirate Ships. I can do that but yeah, it's not like they are two techs into the tree or anything.

That can be pretty powerful.

Too much?

What is the COMMLINK bonus?

Sorry, I mean COMMFREQ (misremembered). Alphax.txt's description is this:

;   COMMFREQ    = Gets an extra comm frequency (another faction to
;                 talk to) at beginning of game. (Parameter is ignored)

I'm thinking that this new team could start with every comm frequency from the get go, if only it worked.


I just gave Doom Butterflies (Locusts of Chiron) the Sleep Gas ability (renamed it to Fear) to make them more valuable.

 

[Petek]

Several years ago I played around with the Interest bonus. +5% proved over-powered for a human player. By saving up ECs, I soon reached the point where I could buy each SP in one turn, upgrade all units to the best and so on. However, the AI didn't benefit all that much from the interest bonus. They tended to spend their excess ECs instead of saving them. Thus, they never accrued enough ECs to make a big difference. Will be interesting to see if you have a similar experience.

Petek

 

[vyeh]

It's pretty much this done in the same art style as the others with nipples and female parts.

I still think some kind of Amazon faction. Maybe we could have a matrilineal society, where the men fight (that should take care of your icon problem) but the women rule. Maybe +EFFICIENCY, +SUPPORT, -POLICE, -INDUSTRY to reflect that more men are out in the field. (Throw in a -GROWTH if you wish but balance with +PLANET and another bonus.)

Those actually come a bit later on in the game, the same tech as Ballistae/Pirate Ships. I can do that but yeah, it's not like they are two techs into the tree or anything.

So you are worried about reverse engineering?

Too much?

I think I have seen 2% used successfully.

Sorry, I mean COMMFREQ (misremembered). Alphax.txt's description is this:

;   COMMFREQ    = Gets an extra comm frequency (another faction to
;                 talk to) at beginning of game. (Parameter is ignored)

I'm thinking that this new team could start with every comm frequency from the get go, if only it worked.

What happens when you try COMMFREQ?

I just gave Doom Butterflies (Locusts of Chiron) the Sleep Gas ability (renamed it to Fear) to make them more valuable.

That will help them.

 

[Kilkakon]

I still think some kind of Amazon faction. Maybe we could have a matrilineal society, where the men fight (that should take care of your icon problem) but the women rule. Maybe +EFFICIENCY, +SUPPORT, -POLICE, -INDUSTRY to reflect that more men are out in the field. (Throw in a -GROWTH if you wish but balance with +PLANET and another bonus.)

Hehe that seems like a good insult -- throwing out the people you don't like to get them killed. Maybe even a MORALE penalty would fit... I know that I wouldn't like to be in that situation.

So you are worried about reverse engineering?

No I was just saying it's not like the Angels who can keep pumping out Probe Teams. I'm not worried about Reverse Engineering as trying it just crashes the game anyway.

I think I have seen 2% used successfully.

Alright let's go with that then.

What happens when you try COMMFREQ?

It has no effect.

 

[vyeh]

Hehe that seems like a good insult -- throwing out the people you don't like to get them killed. Maybe even a MORALE penalty would fit... I know that I wouldn't like to be in that situation.

Or maybe a MORALE bonus (survivors return home to life of breeding stallion! The matriarchs are very practical) It could make for an interesting faction.

No I was just saying it's not like the Angels who can keep pumping out Probe Teams. I'm not worried about Reverse Engineering as trying it just crashes the game anyway.

I thought it might be interesting if the Assassins started out with one or more ninja spies.

 

[Kilkakon]

Or maybe a MORALE bonus (survivors return home to life of breeding stallion! The matriarchs are very practical) It could make for an interesting faction.

Okay so we have a faction were the females rule over the males (males are a separate caste). The males are trained for war and sent out, those that survive are pretty much reproducing as much as Oblivion [personally] does.

I think Christainity is an anti-idealogy.



Seems workable though, I do want the factions to be original and not just rip offs of the original SMAC/X ones.

I thought it might be interesting if the Assassins started out with one or more ninja spies.

Sure why not. It's a shame I can't give spies an icon but having a full-black outfit still works somewhat.

I am looking forward to having some people playtest as soon as I have some more graphics done.

 

[vyeh]

Okay so we have a faction were the females rule over the males (males are a separate caste). The males are trained for war and sent out, those that survive are pretty much reproducing as much as Oblivion [personally] does.

I think Christainity is an anti-idealogy.

True, Christianity seems to come in more flavors than, say demon worshippers. Does our new faction need to be Christians?

Seems workable though, I do want the factions to be original and not just rip offs of the original SMAC/X ones.

I think there are a lot of combinations of bonuses and penalties that still can be explored. One thing that comes to my mind is slow growth, low production, elite military, free clean reactors, maybe talents or free RECREATION COMMONS

 

[Kilkakon]

True, Christianity seems to come in more flavors than, say demon worshippers. Does our new faction need to be Christians?

No, no, I was just saying that this society definitely goes against scripture. They can be either athiest or demonic easily, athiest seems to fit most.

I think the name Vixen's Path would fit this team pretty well.

I think there are a lot of combinations of bonuses and penalties that still can be explored. One thing that comes to my mind is slow growth, low production, elite military, free clean reactors, maybe talents or free RECREATION COMMONS

Well this faction makes the set of 14 complete. I'm open to changing the newer 7 a lot though as some of them have been thrown together. I'll post all current the stats together for you:

Blackband's Pirates
{Aquatic faction}
-1 EFFICIENCY {Individualistic mentality opposed to central organization}
-1 GROWTH {Culture does not place high emphasis on family}

Deadly Assassins
+2 PROBE: {Experts in stealthy movement}
+1 RESEARCH: {Places value on training and studying}
-1 SUPPORT: {Prefers few elite units over "grunt" warriors}
Begins with a free SPY.
{May not value Wealth.}

Mushroom Merchants
+1 ECONOMY: {Experience in running item shops, mini-games, etc.}
-1 MORALE: {Disinterested in combat}
2% INTEREST: {gains 2% interest on gold reserves every year}
Begins with 100 extra gold.
{May not pursue All Must Die}

The Betrayed
+50% PSI: {Followers desire revenge}
+1 INDUSTRY: {Rage fuels production}
-1 EFFIC: {People are selfish due to past hurt}
-1 MORALE: {Troops often freeze in panic}
Receives half penalties for GROWTH modifiers
{May not embrace Christianity in Social Engineering.}

Lukas' Rangers - really overpowered
+1 PLANET: {Environmental safeguards; can recruit natives}
-1 ECONOMY: {Lack of interest in making money}
-1 MORALE: {Pacifist tendencies}
-1 POLICE: {Freedom loving}
Free TREE FARM in every base (unique facility)
{May not pursue All Must Die}

The True Arena
+2 MORALE: {Battle hardened warriors that train daily}
-1 EFFIC: {It is time-consuming to transfer creatures from arena to arena}
-1 INDUSTRY: {Extravagant Arena operation proves costly}
Free ARENA in every base.
{May not value Knowledge}

Vixen's Path
...whatever we decide upon. For dicussion's sake, let's start with this:
+EFFICIENCY, +SUPPORT, -POLICE, -INDUSTRY
(and maybe +MORALE, -GROWTH, although that may not be enough)


But yeah I am happy to play around with those. We could add more I suppose but then we are going into custom factions.

And thanks for the help again hey, can't forget to give credit when it's due.

 

[vyeh]

No, no, I was just saying that this society definitely goes against scripture. They can be either athiest or demonic easily, athiest seems to fit most.

I think the name Vixen's Path would fit this team pretty well.

I was thinking of some type of Mother Earth religion (to support the matriarch). Does that seem more atheist than demonic?

Well this faction makes the set of 14 complete. I'm open to changing the newer 7 a lot though as some of them have been thrown together. I'll post all current the stats together for you:

Blackband's Pirates
{Aquatic faction}
-1 EFFICIENCY {Individualistic mentality opposed to central organization}
-1 GROWTH {Culture does not place high emphasis on family}

Seems similar to the Nautilus Pirates. How does it differ?

Deadly Assassins
+2 PROBE: {Experts in stealthy movement}
+1 RESEARCH: {Places value on training and studying}
-1 SUPPORT: {Prefers few elite units over "grunt" warriors}
Begins with a free SPY.
{May not value Wealth.}

I like.

Mushroom Merchants
+1 ECONOMY: {Experience in running item shops, mini-games, etc.}
-1 MORALE: {Disinterested in combat}
2% INTEREST: {gains 2% interest on gold reserves every year}
Begins with 100 extra gold.
{May not pursue All Must Die}

What is difference from Morgan?

The Betrayed
+50% PSI: {Followers desire revenge}
+1 INDUSTRY: {Rage fuels production}
-1 EFFIC: {People are selfish due to past hurt}
-1 MORALE: {Troops often freeze in panic}
Receives half penalties for GROWTH modifiers
{May not embrace Christianity in Social Engineering.}

I like.

Lukas' Rangers - really overpowered
+1 PLANET: {Environmental safeguards; can recruit natives}
-1 ECONOMY: {Lack of interest in making money}
-1 MORALE: {Pacifist tendencies}
-1 POLICE: {Freedom loving}
Free TREE FARM in every base (unique facility)
{May not pursue All Must Die}

Maybe a growth penalty.

The True Arena
+2 MORALE: {Battle hardened warriors that train daily}
-1 EFFIC: {It is time-consuming to transfer creatures from arena to arena}
-1 INDUSTRY: {Extravagant Arena operation proves costly}
Free ARENA in every base.
{May not value Knowledge}

I like.

Vixen's Path
...whatever we decide upon. For dicussion's sake, let's start with this:
+EFFICIENCY, +SUPPORT, -POLICE, -INDUSTRY
(and maybe +MORALE, -GROWTH, although that may not be enough)

Not enough bonuses or not enough penalties?

But yeah I am happy to play around with those. We could add more I suppose but then we are going into custom factions.

I think we have enough.

And thanks for the help again hey, can't forget to give credit when it's due.

You're welcome.

 

[Kilkakon]

I was thinking of some type of Mother Earth religion (to support the matriarch). Does that seem more atheist than demonic?

Gaia is definitely demonic.

Seems similar to the Nautilus Pirates. How does it differ?

It doesn't get the ability to build in deep sea squares.

What is difference from Morgan?

Morgan has a support penality instead of a morale penalty from memory. Also there's the 2% interest than the commerce bonus.

Maybe a growth penalty.

I'm thinking maybe industry. What the big impact of having a Tree Farm is that Forests have 2/2/2. That's a big trade and production bonus, so things like Colony Pods and stuff are produced a lot faster than what would be normal. Of course Farms on Moist squares produce more food than a Forest but until Growth Focus (although I always beeline for it) they aren't going to produce more than 2.

Not enough bonuses or not enough penalties?

Well I mean having a +MORALE in exchange for a -GROWTH seems a bit unfair, GROWTH is more valuable than MORALE.

I'm not sure about having a -GROWTH though. I mean sure they have only the champions allowed to reproduce, but they would be reproducing pretty much all the time, which probably cancels it. Eventually they might have to worry about biodiversity problems though.

I think we have enough.

Good.

 

[vyeh]

Gaia is definitely demonic.

Yeah, I like having a faction that actually believes in Gaia (I see the original faction as eco-nuts).

It doesn't get the ability to build in deep sea squares.

It seems too similar to the Nautilus Pirates. Let us start by changing the name. Unless you are attached to this faction, maybe we can see if we can develop a faction that is different from both the Nautilus Pirates and the Seafoam.

Morgan has a support penality instead of a morale penalty from memory. Also there's the 2% interest than the commerce bonus.

Plus no population cap at size 4, right?

I'm thinking maybe industry. What the big impact of having a Tree Farm is that Forests have 2/2/2. That's a big trade and production bonus, so things like Colony Pods and stuff are produced a lot faster than what would be normal. Of course Farms on Moist squares produce more food than a Forest but until Growth Focus (although I always beeline for it) they aren't going to produce more than 2.
Well I mean having a +MORALE in exchange for a -GROWTH seems a bit unfair, GROWTH is more valuable than MORALE.

An industry bonus sounds interesting. They are outdoors people and have problems manufacturing.

I'm not sure about having a -GROWTH though. I mean sure they have only the champions allowed to reproduce, but they would be reproducing pretty much all the time, which probably cancels it. Eventually they might have to worry about biodiversity problems though.

I am not sure we need to penalize them further. There is already -1 EFFICIENCY and -1 INDUSTRY.

(man why is this community so splintered? :X) so I can't download the fair version.

I prefer to see it as a lot of choices.

I assume you have downloaded this version, which is transcend level. And you are looking for the Librarian version. This is the procedure to modify the scenario file. (You have to be careful not to look at the map if you are planning to play.)

Launch SMAX. Go to Scenario > Edit Scenario File and load in the scenario file. Under Scenario Editor, you need to go through each faction in turn and set the difficulty level to Librarian. Finally go back to the faction you are playing and force the difficulty level to Librarian. Save the scenario file (use a different name so you don't overwrite the original scenario file). Now you can play the scenario (the alphax.txt, interludex.txt and the scenario.txt files are the same).

Anyway, the above information is useful for a modder.

 

[Kilkakon]

Yeah, I like having a faction that actually believes in Gaia (I see the original faction as eco-nuts).

Alright then.

So Vixen is +EFFICIENCY, +SUPPORT, -POLICE, -INDUSTRY then. I did some of their diplomacy strings yesterday... they are an interesting bunch.

Good thing I didn't call them Amazons though. The original Amazons apparently cut off their right breast so they could fire arrows easily. Powerful stuff.

It seems too similar to the Nautilus Pirates. Let us start by changing the name. Unless you are attached to this faction, maybe we can see if we can develop a faction that is different from both the Nautilus Pirates and the Seafoam.

I have attached the graphics for the current Pirates, with funky censoring. As you can see the leader pic suits the team pretty well (I added the logo to his legband though), but I am very open to changing the stats to make them more unique. The name can change as well, I just was like "He is wearing black bands. Blackband. That's a good enough pirate name for me! ". Seafoam aren't aquatic though, if you were thinking that.

Plus no population cap at size 4, right?

Yes of course.

An industry bonus sounds interesting. They are outdoors people and have problems manufacturing.

I meant a penalty... they end up getting a production bonus by default as the forests produce more production than a farm does. Of course a full on developed square (farm+road+mine) can produce more but doesn't have the trade (unless the player goes for Trade/Wealth to get +++ECONOMY).

I prefer to see it as a lot of choices.

I assume you have downloaded this version, which is transcend level. And you are looking for the Librarian version. This is the procedure to modify the scenario file. (You have to be careful not to look at the map if you are planning to play.)

Launch SMAX. Go to Scenario > Edit Scenario File and load in the scenario file. Under Scenario Editor, you need to go through each faction in turn and set the difficulty level to Librarian. Finally go back to the faction you are playing and force the difficulty level to Librarian. Save the scenario file (use a different name so you don't overwrite the original scenario file). Now you can play the scenario (the alphax.txt, interludex.txt and the scenario.txt files are the same).

Anyway, the above information is useful for a modder. Since, I want you working on your mod, so I am attaching a zip of the librarian scenario file to this post as a convenience.

Thanks a ton hey! I will download it and play it another time when I am bored.

 

[vyeh]

So Vixen is +EFFICIENCY, +SUPPORT, -POLICE, -INDUSTRY then. I did some of their diplomacy strings yesterday... they are an interesting bunch.

I think it will be a good faction, adding a lot of flavor to the game.

Good thing I didn't call them Amazons though. The original Amazons apparently cut off their right breast so they could fire arrows easily. Powerful stuff.

They also killed male babies. (I think their behavior surpasses the behavior of the Spartans -- enforced homosexual pedophilia.)

I have attached the graphics for the current Pirates, with funky censoring.

I'm sure Petek appreciates your efforts to avoid disturbing anyone.

As you can see the leader pic suits the team pretty well (I added the logo to his legband though), but I am very open to changing the stats to make them more unique. The name can change as well, I just was like "He is wearing black bands. Blackband. That's a good enough pirate name for me! ".

I like the name after seeing the image. I'm just wondering if we can create factional characteristics so the faction plays differently than the Nautilus Pirates.

Seafoam aren't aquatic though, if you were thinking that.

Somehow, I was thinking that. Maybe it was their backstory.

Yes of course.

Once again, I am wondering if we can create factional characteristics that make them play differently from Morgan.

I meant a penalty... they end up getting a production bonus by default as the forests produce more production than a farm does. Of course a full on developed square (farm+road+mine) can produce more but doesn't have the trade (unless the player goes for Trade/Wealth to get +++ECONOMY).

Sorry, I also meant penalty.

Thanks a ton hey! I will download it and play it another time when I am bored.

You're welcome. I think you have been a good influence for this forum. Before you came, there was very little activity. Now there are a couple of other threads. Someone asked at Apolyton which was a good forum to ask balancing questions. I used this thread as a reference for my ability to help, but also suggested that he might want to come here to take advantage of your experience.

Yeah sorry. I am just a little annoyed at forums that force you to sign up just to download something. It's an unfair way to get membership I think.

Actually, WePlayCiv has been very good at putting their GotM in the download section which doesn't require registration.

 

[Kilkakon]

Sorry about the delay, my phone line died half way through typing this.

I think it will be a good faction, adding a lot of flavor to the game.

I'm glad you suggested them. I'm not sure what type of building would be best associated to these gals but I'm sure we'll figure something out.

EDIT: What species of unit would they start off with? I'm thinking either Charmander or Squirtle, but Human is possible too.

They also killed male babies. (I think their behavior surpasses the behavior of the Spartans -- enforced homosexual pedophilia.)

. I'm glad I live in this day and age, that's for sure. Let's hope that it's slow to make its comeback. (I'm referring to the Spartans here). Amazons don't freak me out as much, they just strike me more as trying to be one sex only in a practical sense rather than a sexual way.

At the moment these people (Vixen's Path) do sterilise boys and leave them outside to die, I am not sure if I will leave that in or not, it's a bit brutal. At the moment the boys at least they get a chance to prove themselves in combat before the snip.

I'm sure Petek appreciates your efforts to avoid disturbing anyone.

Sure, I'm more just wanting to avoid anybody getting aroused than anything else.

I like the name after seeing the image. I'm just wondering if we can create factional characteristics so the faction plays differently than the Nautilus Pirates.
...
Once again, I am wondering if we can create factional characteristics that make them play differently from Morgan.

Sure we can! What do you suggest?

I'm trying to invest some creative energy into the diplomacy strings for each faction to try and make them more unique and less SMAC. Oblivion may be a bit too perverted though.

Sorry, I also meant penalty.

Fair enough! I'm thinking -INDUSTRY as they have a lot of penalties already.

You're welcome. I think you have been a good influence for this forum. Before you came, there was very little activity. Now there are a couple of other threads. Someone asked at Apolyton which was a good forum to ask balancing questions. I used this thread as a reference for my ability to help, but also suggested that he might want to come here to take advantage of your experience.

Aww thanks vyeh. I am happy that my presence here is a good thing -- maybe this mod's release will help things along more. To God be all the glory.

Actually, WePlayCiv has been very good at putting their GotM in the download section which doesn't require registration.

I agree. They just only did it for the Transcend difficulty in this case. It's all good, I didn't imply any malice.



A name for this mod: how about Lost Eden?