• Civ7 is already available! Happy playing :).

LotR 3 - Emperor Training

Not a programmer/analyst here, though I do some programming as part of my work in cryptography. Mostly C, actually, although I'll sling a fair number of languages to fit certain needs.

Another drop. Methinks something may be wrong with the set-up of this game. One of the originals (Architect) is still playing and he's not done the last couple shadow turns. Is there still sufficient interest in this? Or should I call it an idea-gone-awry and just let it die? Or lose the training aspect??? I'd like to hear from the participants.

Evals hopefully coming today.

Arathorn
 
Playing every turn is a bit much.

I am actually finding the game confusing with playing a shadow turn, getting the next real turn, and trying to deal with a different world. Sometimes VERY changed - What happened to workers I just bought - the city is in a different spot, etc.

A straight game with commentary on that players turn (like LK23) would still serve the training purpose.

Plus some of the drop problem is people tried emperor, and found it too much. I do know I can handle the level with a little better watch of the detail, but I am tiring of spending a lot of time writing up a detailed report for a unused (shadow) turn.
 
(1725) In general, if two workers are in the same squares, it's to your benefit to have them doing the same thing -- it finishes faster and you can get benefits from it faster. In this case, it doesn't really matter, as the square will never be worked.

You overdid the lux tax. The revolt rule is that a city will revolt if the number of unhappy citizens is greater than the number of happy ones -- content ones don't matter for revolt purposes. 2 happy and 2 unhappy is just fine.

Whipping the temple in Allegheny is a capital crime, however. Allegheny is a first-ring city, and, as such, has very low corruption rates. The 20 shields you saved now would have been recovered in 20 turns by that citizen and then a whole magnitude of more shields would have been created. The loss of one person cuts the productivity of Allegheny for countless turns to come. This isn't some corrupt outer colony, this is a core city and you needlessly whipped it. Big-time waste.

It's even more tragic than that. Allegheny already had one whip memory of unhappiness. You've now created TWO unhappy citizens for the next 40 turns. The costs of that will be immense -- in either MP, lost productivity, lux tax, or some combination of all of these. Definitely :smoke: deserving a large number of :spank: and other such reprisals.

(1675) The temple in OS can definitely wait, so it should wait. A barracks can find use immediately, as can a granary, or a worker. A temple, though, has little use in the immediate future. Not a good choice.

(1650) When considering that question, ask how much (if any) the difference in shields actually makes. A city with 5 shields and a city with 6 shields will each finish a spear (20 shields) in 4 turns. But 6 to 7 cuts off a full turn. Examine the sitauation. Later, when such calculations become tedious, shoot for multiples of 10 (or at least 5) for shield counts, as ALL units/buildings/etc. cost a multiple of 10 shields. Food is important, too, though. In this case, with the faster growth, it's almost certainly worth working the grassland.

(1625) City strength of core cities is very important -- possibly moreso than getting a colony/second-ring city founded a few turns earlier. Notably, NF can grow faster the larger it is (up to a point), and the longer that's delayed, the harder it hits.

Not buying math in that situation is definitely the correct move to make.

(1600) Definitely keep Catt on growth! Why build a temple? Minsk isn't putting any cultural pressure on. A worker for the nice cow and grass makes much more sense. OK, the temple gets a second cow in range, so it's not outlandish, but the worker will have better benefit sooner than the temple.

Sala is fine with 2 happy, 1 content, 2 unhappy. All that matters is that (# happy) >= (# unhappy). This is wasting gold every turn -- gold we can ill afford to lose.

The tech deals you made look OK to me. ~$40/tech isn't a BAD price. Too bad we couldn't sell Poly again. Que sera, sera.

Why just a RoP with Russia? India had cash to spend (after we paid them for Poly), so you should've done the embassy/RoP with them, too.

(1575) You're lucky the 2/1/2 is fine in Sala, because the temple due next turn in Sala wouldn't be completed if it went into disorder. Happiness is checked first, then food/growth, then shields/commerce. A building doesn't help with happiness until the turn AFTER it is completed. A wasted turn in Sala here would have bad repurcussions.

Ah...you did India this turn. Good thing they didn't spend all that cash.

(1550) Granary is fine in Sala, as would a spear be. Ideally, we'd've built the granary 20 turns ago and could slip in the occasional worker from Sala without affecting growth much. We still can, though, so I'm not arguing. A worker, too, would make sense here.

(1525) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whipping two more cities? With things that can wait? And one second-ring and one first-ring city? NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!! Those extra citizens would more than make up for the 20 shields saved in the near future. That puts a serious crimp in the growth curves of both cities, for VERY VERY limited gains. Horrible, horrible, terrible move. About as unspeakably bad as the whip in A. Tragic, really.

I really should rant about this for about 10 pages to let you know how bad it is -- how much it hurts. But I just don't have the energy today.

(1500) I realize it will be vetoed, but NF should not be building a warrior! I'll say it again -- NF should be building workers, settlers, or a granary. NOTHING else makes sense there. It's got food -- use it! Capitalize on that city's strength, don't make it suffer through weaknesses. We need workers and settlers en masse and NF is the best city to fill that need.

Mining the bonus grass was the RIGHT thing to do -- it would be used RIGHT now if you hadn't wasted a citizen whipping a temple that wasn't really needed. Instead of OS at size 2, with 4 shields, it's size one with 2 or 3. This is the inherent waste of your whip. And that shortage will continue for probably hundreds of turns in OS. Terribly short-sighted and painful. Yet, you question the wise move without considering the horrible effects of the :smoke:. Truly, the weed has you fully in its grasp.

Don't fortify workers!!! They're frightfully hard to notice like that. Just end without him moved if you really don't want to decide. If the square is partially worked, though, it should at least get a road so that it's a valuable square when used. Otherwise, it wastes a worker turn moving off and a later worker turn moving back on to build the necessary road.

Future growth is what the early game is all about. The usefulness of that bonus grass square to OS is high. Our need for iron right now is low. No, it's not a bad move to get the iron nearly ready for use, but it's not an essential, immediate need either.

Other notes:
- I would've attacked the barb camp in the north. The longer it sits there, the more likely it is to spawn 25 horsies to mow us down. No, it's not an ideal attack, but it's probably worth making, since the barb camp is, I believe, on flat ground (use Ctl-Shift-M to make certain).
- Not sure about the red dots -- they're a ways out from our core area and I think we could get 4 cities better positioned with a bit of effort.
- Tonawanda is in a HORRIBLE location. Why did you choose there instead of one NW of where it is? One NW gives not much more overlap, sea access, and less wasted tiles near the core of our empire. Definitely a weedy decision.

City management: F (whip, whip, whip, pithy micro in Sala missed, warrior ordered in NF, wasted lux tax)
Military: B- (not much to report -- missed an attack opportunity)
Techs: B (You didn't panic on math and got it part and parcel with Poly)
Diplo: A (embassies and RoP with most nations -- plus gold, very good)
City placement: D (wastes good tiles for no perceptible benefit)

Overall: F (the whips override pretty much everything else)

Arathorn
 
Jbob42 -- you're in if you want. If you've shadowed to 1250, that's cool, go ahead and post it (now) in the shadow thread. I'll put you in the official rotation, too, once I figure out how that's going to go.

Lee -- you don't have to play every shadow turn -- taking the occasional break might be good.

All -- If/when you *do* skip shadow turns, a brief note to that effect might be nice -- not necessary but nice (feel free to PM or email me, too)

I'm up next officially. In the next few days, I hope to re-establish the official order list and such, but it will take some time.

Arathorn
 
Thanks A! I will re-post as soon as i get back to the farm where the file is :)

After reading your review, I am hoping i didnt do any whipping!
 
Arathorn,

I want to emphasize that my drop was really precipitated by my business trip, otherwise I would still be involved.

To answer your other question, I really think it's the grading system that is the problem. Most of us want to get better and have fun, but having your play publicly rated as "F" or "D-" not only raises the stress level of the turns to a "non-fun" level, it's discouraging. I think your analyses are correct, but there are reasons grades are not generally released to the public.

Basically, whenever I sat down to play (and I think Brian J had the same experience, although I can't say for sure), I spent so long analyzing each move, wondering if it was the "right" move in each situation, that the game lost all its enjoyment. I learned a lot, and I won't make some of the mistakes again, but now everyone knows what a dolt I was.

I realize it's not your intention to have us feel this way. In fact, I think the system is perfect, all except for the grade at the end. In some ways, the grade makes no difference - we'll know how we did from your description, but the intangible aspect of having your grade out there for all to see is discouraging.

I don't mean to take this too seriously, and I know that no one really cares how we do. Like I said, it wasn't a huge problem, and I'd still be in the game if it wasn't for my trip. I don't stay up nights worrying about what the other civfanatics think of my play or anything. The primary point is the reduction of "fun" in the play itself.

Good luck guys, and I'll still be looking in.
 
I would have to agree with LK on the point of playing the shadows then going to the official. I know when i played my turn acouple of times i had forgotten about certain things that i had found and that the official one didn't.

as for this comment..
I really should rant about this for about 10 pages to let you know how bad it is -- how much it hurts. But I just don't have the energy today.
gave me a good little chuckle and let me realize more then the 10 pages would have. Though i do have a question, i remember seeing in the 1.21f patch ( i think it was here ) that they reduced the unhappines caused by whipping to 20 turns from 40. When you said 40 turns was this from 20 turns of unhappiness from each of the 2 citizens ? and if so wouldn't they take there 20 turns at the same exact time ??

And about those little mishaps with the whips.. well ill just attribute them to a blood thrust and will restrain myself from now on :p
 
Originally posted by charliehoke
Arathorn,

I want to emphasize that my drop was really precipitated by my business trip, otherwise I would still be involved.

To answer your other question, I really think it's the grading system that is the problem. Most of us want to get better and have fun, but having your play publicly rated as "F" or "D-" not only raises the stress level of the turns to a "non-fun" level, it's discouraging. I think your analyses are correct, but there are reasons grades are not generally released to the public.

Basically, whenever I sat down to play (and I think Brian J had the same experience, although I can't say for sure), I spent so long analyzing each move, wondering if it was the "right" move in each situation, that the game lost all its enjoyment. I learned a lot, and I won't make some of the mistakes again, but now everyone knows what a dolt I was.

I realize it's not your intention to have us feel this way. In fact, I think the system is perfect, all except for the grade at the end. In some ways, the grade makes no difference - we'll know how we did from your description, but the intangible aspect of having your grade out there for all to see is discouraging.

I don't mean to take this too seriously, and I know that no one really cares how we do. Like I said, it wasn't a huge problem, and I'd still be in the game if it wasn't for my trip. I don't stay up nights worrying about what the other civfanatics think of my play or anything. The primary point is the reduction of "fun" in the play itself.

Good luck guys, and I'll still be looking in.

I agree with what Charlie has said here, on every point. I felt the same way.

For me, it wasn't getting poor grades that got to me, I expected that, although it was kinda discouraging. I bit off more than I could chew with Emperor Training. I mean, I only started playing at Regent even through SGs. Playing in the Regent SGs got me used to that level, but I've never even played a Monarch game.. or a full Regent game for that matter. I guess I would have been better off joining a Regent training.. :p

I'll also admit, reading comments from certain RBDers who call Monarch the 'easy' level is a bit unnerving too. :lol:
 
I have put shadow turns on the bottom of my list of priorities with regards to the time I have to play. I just haven't had time. When my turn comes back up for real I will take it quickly and promptly as it will be a higher priority.
 
I am dropping from this one.

The more I think about it, the more I don't like the shadow turn system. Do I want to spend an hour+ on unused moves - NO.

I am finding myself totally confused with what is happening with the "real" game vs. the "shadow" game.

I do know I can play emperor now, but I think the format used with games like LK23 makes more sense - comments on the current players turn.

Plus, the turnover has already been to high, and I suspect it will stay that way.
 
(0) 1500 - Change NF to granary -- pending later changes. The flood plain wheat is almost as good and doesn't require the shields. We'll see in time whether it will be needed.

Move the Allegheny citizen from the unroaded bonus grass to the roaded one. Change Cattaraugus to worker. OS changed to barracks.

Activate the warrior in the north and attack the barb camp, with fingers crossed. SUCCESS!

GR's likely to get raped this turn. Let's see if I can spend some of our gold to prevent losing too much. An embassy with Egypt costs 47 gold. They have a settler ready to pop next turn and one spear only in defense.

I turn science down to zero and lux tax down to 10%. This nets an additional 4 gpt.

I finally hit enter and move on.

(I) 22 gold lost in GR massacre.

(1) 1475 - North warrior does nothing (trying to heal), other adventurer heads towards GR barb base/main cities. Spear leads settler north. Scout explores -- I still want to see the SE.

Worker by OS noticed, activated, and set to building a road. Leaving a square without a road can be right, but it very VERY often is better to road each square a worker passes. PLEASE do not fortify workers, as they're very hard to notice, especially as the map gets more crowded.

Lux tax raised to 20% to keep Sala happy/content -- settler next turn means it can be turned back down soon. Sala is put on max food as the settler has extra shields. NF put on high food still.

(I) Sala completes settler, starts spear. We're getting to the point where we need settler escorts and defense against AI. Sala has our barracks, so it can pump out a few troops.

(2) 1450 - Settler north, workers by T road. Warriors move to support/fog-busting positions as GR will soon expand its border to frag the barb camp. Spear and settler continue north.

Catt citizen moved from forest to grassland -- no affect on time to worker. T put to higher growth. Sala given 6/7/7 orders. (Work the mined grass one turn for 6 total shields and higher food, then move to the mined hill for seven shields but less food.)

(3) 1425 - Workers between GR and A split, one returning to bonus grass to mine, the other north to connect GR and its luxury to the rest of the nation. Spear/settler reach destination and reconsider. Other troops positioning.

Sala moved to shields. NF citizen moved to mined plains, as growth will be in 2 turns either way.

(I) Saxon encampment by GR dispersed by culture. Catt completes worker and begins a temple.

(4) 1400 - Worker by OS to road near iron. Workers between NF and T split -- one going to a flood plain near NF, the other continuing towards T. Settlers move, one with spear escort, the other with a warrior near. Worker by Catt to cattle, with a warrior sent as escort.

Russia has Code of Laws and Map Making, as do Egypt, China, and India. Sigh. Time to break out the checkbook (and the world map). There are times to not sell your world map. This is not one of them. The lands north of us are ours and nothing's going to change that. The rest of the continent is others' and our map of it isn't going to speed them along much at all.

India will sell Map Making for WM and 45 gold. Done. China sells Code of Laws for WM + 47 gold. I made these trades based more on score/future threat than on the best deal necessarily. Our WM is available, so I fully shop it. Russia gives Territory Map and 17 gold (making our WM more valuable in the process). Cleo gives her WM and 2 gold for our world map. This fills in nearly all gaps in our knowledge. Might as well trade the updated map to India and China, though. 13 gold from Ghandi and WM + 8 gold from Mao. WM + 2 gold from Russia.

Everybody now has the full world map shared. And we got two techs reasonably cheaply. Total cost, $50 and whoring our map around.

(I) GR gonna get sacked again next turn. Sala completes spear and starts another.

(5) 1375 - Sala spear to NF for MP/security reasons. Workers to east both irrigate. Worker near iron roads first, in case we need to get to the iron fast in an emergency.

Mauch Chunk founded to get the whale -- not the greatest location, but it will serve for now. Temple started to get whale. Cow mined, since no fresh water is near.

Scout wanders....

NF citizen moved to food from desert.

(I) Cathy wants to swap WMs. We agree -- no gain/loss but might make the AI happy. GR ransacked for 22 gold. We get the FP message. No ideal spot yet. Sala is pretty centrally located. Giza looks like a good spot in an ideal world. We'll see what develops, though. It's a matter of timing and location....

(6) 1350 - St. Regis founded and begins a swordman prototype, I mean warrior. Scout "invades" Russia to see Moscow's defenses.

Sala put on max growth, not affecting time to spearman at all.

(I) Russian settler seen N of Moscow. Looks like we'll lose the jungle. Semi-bummer.

(7) 1325 - Very little action. All looks good/in place.

(I) Sala completes spear, begins archer (barb-buster). GR completes warrior, begins settler but not terribly vigorously (i.e. will probably evaluate again later).

(8) 1300 - Worker by OS returns to near Sala to help improve its lands. Spear from Sala fortifies and warrior stays there. Scout trying to get into position to interfere with Russian settler, but it looks unlikely.

I think to change T to a harbor this turn. Rest of the cities look solid.

(9) 1275 - Workers who irrigated now begin roading. Scout won't catch settler but it's on the way towards home anyway. NF working both high shield tiles, but that's OK for now (still growth in 5 turns). T moved to irrigated plains for no shield loss and faster growth.

Philosophy available, but Russia only has it. Our cost to purchase and shop wouldn't alleviate overall cost. Gotta wait a turn or two.

(10) 1250 - Road to GR worker moves to new square. Worker by Sala mines.

Sala put on very high food for one round. Then, it should probably crank another settler. Too bad we don't have a granary in place yet. Que sera, sera. Catt citizen moved from forest to bonus grass, speeding growth and not changing time to temple at all.

Philosophy is still not shopped and too expensive. We can buy it, but then we couldn't really shop it, because the other three civs are too poor.

Arathorn

Save at

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-iroquois-1250bc.zip
 
I am interested in continuing but would suggest we just play it like the other training games where you comment on each turn.

Who's still in and who's up?

Oh, and I appreciated your harshness as it only helps you get better. If I want a super fun game I'll play monarch solo or something.
 
I am also interested in continuing -- if comments have to be limited to the "official" thread, then i think that would be ok -- i still might make shadow turns and post them (grade away if you want to arathorn :) ). I think the 20 different turns is interesting ---- but as this scenario becomes more complex and we start having RoP and MPPs all arround, I can see it becoming a little more confusing -- right now, its no problem.

Arathorn-- i am interested in how you view my turns posted on the shadow board -- i wasnt quite as efficient in the trades (2 techs for 96 instead of 50), and i let us get raped at GR 2 too many times :) -- didnt think the attack on the barb camp was in my favor. but otherwise similar results --

oh in mine, Egypt demanded tribute and we told them to stuff it.


Architect - Arathorn said he would republish the roster/playing order, so i was waiting on that.

i am in, but not sure where im playing.
 
1250BC (0) - I veto the production of a granary in NF and opt for a settler instead. I veto the archer in Sala and elect for a granary. We could arrange the growth and completion to be one turn apart but the growth from 6 to 7 clears out the box so it doesn't matter so I opt for maximum growth. I veto the production of settler in GR and switch to worker. I notice that Chattaragus will revolt next turn unless we put Lux to 50%! I decide to move the warrior back into the city to keep if from revolting and I reduce lux to 10% getting us 24 gpt. We are going to run zero science for awhile and just buy techs when we need them.

1225BC (1) - St.Regis completes a warrior and I start production of a worker. Warrior fortifies for long term happiness. Worker near GR starts road because if we don't get the road before it grows we'll have to raise luxuries alot to keep it content. worker near Cat moves N to work shielded grassland. I soak china for 66 gold and their world map for a ROP. Philosophy is still overpriced.

1200BC (2) - Settler completes in NF, I start granary. Worker completes road near NF, I decide to start road towards. Warrior wanders around. I send the worker near towards oil springs. Start building mine near Cat. Nothing changes on the diplomatic front.

1175BC (3) - Worker completes in GR. I begin production of a granary. I move the worker to hookup the incense. Workers moves towoards OS and MC. Scout is preventing the russian settler from moving! I rush the temple in Cat because it will revolt when it grows anyway and it will get the second cow in the city radius. Nothing has changed on the diplomatic front.

1150BC (4) - Temple completes in Cat and I begin a worker. Barracks completes in Oil Springs and i begin construction of a Granary. When can get philo for 70 gold now but why? Not everyone has it yet so I'll wait.

1125BC (5) - Our mine completes near Allegheny. I increase luxuries to 20% to keep sal happy.

1100BC (6) - Sal completes a granary and begin construction of a spearman. St. Regis completes a worker and begins construction of a granary. Our ROP with russia is up and I decide not to renew it. Everything else stays the same. Egypt threatens us and I concede not wanting a war yet with them. Russia builds tiblsi close to OS.

1075BC (7) - Our roads complete and now we have incense throughout our civ. I reduce lux to 10% again. We cancel our ROP with india as they want us to pay them.

1050BC (8) - Our Granary completes in Allegheny. I begin construction of a worker.

1025BC (9) - Our spearman completes in Sal and I begin construction of the Pyramids. Feel free to veto. Our worker completes in cat and I go complete the road to a mine. I begin construction of a granary. I move our spearman to OS. One more turn and our settler is in place for the northern most city.

1000BC (10) - Our mine completes near OS and I move to start another. Philosphy is now with 3 of the 4 AIs. I leave it to the next leader to decide to buy or wait more. A very slow and boring set of turns for sure.

I would build more workers until we get ahead of the improvements vs. population. I suspect we need 5-10 more and then we will hopefully get an advanced government through trade.

Save 1000BC
 
I condone/approve all of the changes you made. I would like to see NF with a granary and it’s probably a good long-term goal to get one there, but it can maybe wait. Even with all its food, though, there are times I wish it were growing faster. Good catch and correction at C.

(1225) St. Regis is not in danger of growing rapidly past its happiness quota. The second warrior there is superfluous. There are a few good things he could be doing – moving to a city that needs MP (like A, perhaps). Or fog-busting to prevent barbs in the north. Or even just moving to a city with barracks to become a sword for when we fight Russia. He’s wasted just sitting in small St. Regis which won’t grow much for a long time – and will probably be connected to luxes by the time it is.

The worker by Catt should’ve roaded before he moved. Now, the next worker who comes and roads that square (and we want it roaded for the commerce it supplies and because it’s on the way towards our eventual foes). It’s basically never worth it to leave a square without roading. There are times (exceptions to every rule), but a good philosophy of roading every square your worker touches will rarely go far wrong.

(1200) Worker orders very confusing here. I’m not sure who was doing what.

(1175) GR was built on incense, so that it’s already hooked up as soon as GR is. Yes, we will need to hook up the rest of the incense eventually, but it’s not a terribly high priority. Still, with the other worker nearing completion of the initial road, it’s not a bad option at all to start hooking up the second source with this worker, as long as he does smart things once the road is built (like mining the nice bonus grasslands that are already roaded between GR and A).

Rushing the temple in Catt was done at a sub-optimal time. If you decided it was going to be necessary (which I will discuss a bit later), you wanted to do it to maximize the number of shields – 20. This would’ve meant whipping the temple right away.

Now, what was the cost of whipping the temple – was it necessary/good? The happiness cancels out. The cow square is achieved 7 turns earlier, which is 7 food to the food vs. 20 lost in the population. That’s about 2/3 of a person lost. So, two turns in three, there’s a loss. This doesn’t last forever, though, as any time a one-food square would be worked in the unwhipped version, the whipped is catching up on food. Figure about 30 shields. With inflation, the 16 shields now might be worth to close to the same value.

Other points to consider, Catt is about 60% corrupt, which means it wasn’t a horrible whip candidate – near the fringe of the empire and all. It helps seal the border with Russia, culturally at least. But there were still lots of good squares to use, so I think the whip was premature. It’s close enough, though, that I can’t really give it a :smoke: call. The timing, sure, should’ve been done right away if it was going to be done. But doing it, that’s a tougher issue.

(1150) Why get philosophy now at $70? A case can be made that it should be done, simply to avoid having too much cash around to get extorted away from us. Alternatively, if it wasn’t fully shopped, could you get some benefit from shopping it? Jbob managed to GAIN cash from philosophy dealing, which is just phenomenal. I did it about this time to just keep up.

(1100) Smart move caving to Egypt, IMO. We don’t want a war (fake or real) with a major power. Buying allies and doing the war change-over on the AI’s timeframe is not a good option, in general, if we can do otherwise. I also agree with not renewing the RoP with Russia. We MIGHT be ready for war earlier than that and we want to keep that option open. Plus, Russia might try to use the RoP to settle the north, which is OURS by right.

(1025) Yeah, Pyramids is a fool’s errand. We have granaries in a few cities now. More importantly, both Russia and Egypt started Pyramids a while ago. Granted, Sala is a bit of a powerhouse city, but it will never beat size 6 Moscow with a big headstart. Our 600 shields vs. their 480? No way! In general, building wonders on upper levels is a pre-build and hope or GL-rush or never proposition. This definitely needs a veto stamp! Jbob42, please take care of this.


Comments from the save game:
- Nice 7 workers! We need those (and a few more). You managed to get those out without hurting the pop growth curve much at all. Kudos to that effort. I agree we still need more, but you definitely made progress.
- The worker by T left prematurely. It deserves at least the other plains square developed. The mined grass by Sala needs a road (I don’t think I saw one there). Leaving a square partially developed without a road is not a good idea.
- More worker stuff – the road to Mauch Chunk can wait. It won’t grow for a long time, and the temple will be done then. Other things can and should take precedence (like irrigation to St. Regis). Now that it’s started, though, I’d let the worker finish his current job. The hill by Sala also isn’t a very high priority at this point – the grass SW should be a higher priority – food = pop = power.
- A Catta citizen should be moved off the bonus grass to the cow square. It doesn’t even cost a shield, as the “loss” is a wasted shield, not a real one.

Arathorn
 
D9Phoenix, I owed you a response. Sorry I took so #@$(& long.

Yes, the whipping penalty is down to 20 turns. But, when you whip a city already suffering from whip penalty (Allegheny in this case), it's cumulative. A already had one whip memory, so now it's two citizens for 40 turns starting when you whipped. Were we to whip A again anytime during those 40 turns, it would have 60 turns worth of unhappiness with 3 citizens. OUCH!

Specific examples:
Whip on turn 3
(one unhappy until turn 23)
Whip again on turn 20
(two unhappy until turn 60)

Whip on turn 3
(one unhappy until turn 23)
Whip again on turn 25
(one unhappy until turn 45)

Whip on turn 3
(one unhappy until turn 23)
Whip again on turn 20
(two unhappy until turn 60)
Whip again on turn 58
(three unhappy until turn 118)

One unhappiness doesn't expire until they ALL do. It's this cumulation that makes more than two whips extremely painful -- and with the new 20-shield limit, even two whips are of questionable value....

Jbob42, you're up for the "official" turn. Play 10 turns, as usual. I'm not sure of the ending year. I can NEVER remember when the 25-year turns stop or anything except that 1700 is the beginning of the 2-year turn.

I'm looking at doing reviews either Monday or Tuesday of next week.

Arathorn
 
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