LotR24 - French Menagerie

[Jabah]

I am up and have it. Can't play tonight so keep the good comments flowing in.
Should be able to play tomorrow night.

Jabah

 

[T_McC]

Well, if you want more ...

If we do go for Rifling and a major war in ~20 turns we should put the Carracks to use. If we have 4-6 Berzerks to upgrade we can do a float-by on the three Arab cities we want to burn. Rifles vs. LBs w/only 20% cultural defenses is a blowout and sailing will be a lot faster than walking, and we want the Arabs dead soon to eliminate our residual WW from them. I'm pretty sure we had 3 Carracks already by my round.

If we want stack cover vs. Cathy's Cataphracts I think our best move is to build a couple of Oromo Warriors in London prior to researching Rifling. Starting with Drill I and II, and having 4 available promotions allows for rather monstrous units. Say ... Drill IV + Formation + Combat I. A 60% bonus vs. Mounted (I believe +25% for us, -35% for them) and 3-6 First Strikes (Cataphracts are not immune to first strikes). Once we have Rifling we won't be able to build Musket-UUs any longer, but I believe we should still be able to build the Mace-based UUs. It's a little gamey but we can have Amphibious Redcoats if we want.

If we are going to the final continental war in ~20 turns our GA infrastructure should skew towards economic and happy buildings. Post-Rifling we may need to run high cash to upgrade our Medieval armies, and during the war we need to stay afloat despite a high lux tax. Since we can trade with at least a couple of civs on the other continent, we should be able to import 2-3 more lux. Also having Theaters in most cities should allow us to avoid the specter of 50% lux this time around. After we have homogenized our continent we can build more Libraries/Unis (and our wonderful UB).

The break point in attacking the other continent may be getting to Destroyers first. London will be able to build Blitz Destroyers from scratch, so if we build about 2-3 of those and declare war on Justinian and Friends, each Destroyer could probably be counted on to sink six Frigates/Galleons per turn. That may allow us to waste a significant portion of the enemy armies without putting our troops at risk.

 

[Arathorn]

I would definitely build some musket UUs. Janissaries, too, are very effective with dealing with outdated troops, as they get a horde of bonuses and would make good stack defenders/attackers/amphibious attackers.

Most of our WW was against Sury, believe it or not. Is he the owner of the Statue of Zeus? That may be something to keep in mind.

I'm all for earlier war. If we're going to make any headway against the other continent before tanks, we need to get our continent under control fairly soonish. The other continent could also be a major voting bloc pain with things, so we need to get our population up ASAP. And that means owning the continent.

Happy buildings are definitely a necessity. But speeding some conquest on the east with amphib units while driving into the heart of Cathy with land units sounds great, if we have the production to pull it off.

Arathorn

 

[T_McC]

I would definitely build some musket UUs. Janissaries, too, are very effective with dealing with outdated troops, as they get a horde of bonuses and would make good stack defenders/attackers/amphibious attackers.

Janissaries are good if we want to build things we won't pay to upgrade to Redcoats, but there is no reason to build them otherwise. We'll only have about an 10-turn window to build Musket UUs before we get Rifling, and if we want units for upgrade, Oromo Warriors are better since we can keep the free promotions.

There is little hammer-cost differential between Muskets and Maces so if we are building for upgrade we can probably just choose based upon what free promotions we want: Drill I + II (Oromo) or Amphibious (Berzerk). I believe we will, however, hit the weird situation where we can build Maces and Rifles but not Muskets since we haven't researched Military Science.

Most of our WW was against Sury, believe it or not. Is he the owner of the Statue of Zeus? That may be something to keep in mind.

That is well and truly bizarre. Or an interface error. Either way, I think Lee indicated Sury had broken free of Cathy so we won't have to fight him right away.

I'm all for earlier war. If we're going to make any headway against the other continent before tanks, we need to get our continent under control fairly soonish. The other continent could also be a major voting bloc pain with things, so we need to get our population up ASAP. And that means owning the continent.

Couple of things: Try not to allow our empire to acquire Buddhism or else we're in danger of an AP loss. Trade with the other continent will also be skittish for this reason as we'll be the only "heathen" and the AIs are incapable of voting their actual self-interest in this regard.

But if I recall the situation correctly from the save ... we may be hitting the dark underside of Aggressive AI. Justinian is definitely the biggest AI besides us, and I think he's beginning to be technologically backwards. I fear he's building a lot of troops with no one to use them on, and choking on the costs. We may be able to get Redcoats vs. Muskets against him (or Tanks vs. Redcoats).

 

[LKendter]

That is well and truly bizarre. Or an interface error. Either way, I think Lee indicated Sury had broken free of Cathy so we won't have to fight him right away.

IIRC Sury went back to being a laptop of Cathy near the end of the set, and I forgot to report it. He did break away for a short time frame.

 

[Refar]

Cathy has Zeus in Moskow. Last save we had about 500 WW with her and some 300 with Sury. So taking Moskow fast would instantly shave about 250 raw WW poits...

 

[T_McC]

Cathy has Zeus in Moskow. Last save we had about 500 WW with her and some 300 with Sury. So taking Moskow fast would instantly shave about 250 raw WW poits...

What did we have with Sal? I don't think the SoZ is being applied to WW from Cathy's Vassals, but I trust no one.

 

[Refar]

Sal was somewhere around 200 i think. I remember thinking that taking Moskow would be roughly equivalent to removing Sury or Sal from the game - in terms of instant WW discount that is.

 

[Refar]

Uh... i just looked it up, and it seems i got it all wrong - perhaps i checked the wrong save before, or just my memory beeing not what it once was...

Anyway from LKenders Save - which i think it the latest:
Cathy 439 WW
Sury 56 WW
Sal 589 WW

I was right about SoZ in Moskow tho...

 

[Jabah]

Summary-Plan to crush Cathy faster than expected
need
- banking [to be trade from Khan or Qin (or Isa but she is someone vassal)]
- gunpower [to be trade from Gilgamesh (for Paper and Banking)]
- PP [GS for 3042/3588]
- RP (self research 4036)
then finish Lib to Rifling


T0
Pull the trigger
Paper+255g to Khan for Banking (Qin was asking for much more)
GE burn to Golden Age
GS burn for Most of PP
Sell Map (unsuccefully)
Isa, Sal, Khan, Just, Surya, Cathy, Gilga -> not interested
Qin -> no money
Brennus -> 100g (done)

Revolt to Mercantilism (keep Theocracy to avoid getting THE wrong religion spreaded by some Isa fanatics)

Reorganise production towards Zerks, trebuchet and hwacha.
Research set to PP in 1t

T1
PP->RP (in 7t at -25gpt)
Paper+banking+185g to Gilga for Gunpowder.

(Gilga has Chemistry ...!)

T2
Saladin asks for Paper
Pay 68g to save the forge in Paris

T3
Gilga+Qin have Astro+Chemistry, they won't be easy to tame later.
Trade some extra (health) ressource with them to build relations

T4
Saladin asks us to cancel deals with Mongol
Cathy asks for Gunpowder no chance dear. (turn cautious now, as if it will matter in 5-6t)


T8
RP -> Liberalism
Isa and Khan also have Paper now. (still none with Education)
Do a 1t at 0% reasearch as 7 Oromos will finish next turn (and I really don't want them to auto-change to RedCoat). Will get around 400g in cash for that.

T9
Someone sabotaged works on the forge at Tours
Carefull there are some units from Cathy in our territory (edit no more on T10)

T10
Khan (pleased) asks for PP, I hate that and refuse as it is a monopoly (and he doesn't know Astro yet, so less troops coming if ever) -> cautious (but not in WHEOOH)
Gilga wants clams for Silk, always happy to help.



Lib (-> Rifling for free)
no revolution (Liberalism) as GA is finished at the same turn.
[slightly bad timing, but we don't want to leave Theocracy anyway, do we?]

Choose Astro as placeholder (Economy is a posibility for GM)

With 50-50 GS/GM, we unfortunatly get a GScientific in Persepolis.

For info : to upgrade to RedCoat, it costs 155g from Oromo and 200g from Zerk


I hate to do that but I have to pass the save BEFORE PLAYING as we need to discuss our attacking plans now.

DECLARING seems to be the thing to do RIGHT NOW

1. cathy has just discover Gunpowder (she gains 1t compare to last time I checked ) but I an't see any gunpowered units yet (she has virtually no cash anyway)
2. We have carracks loaded with high XP Zerks ready to strike (embarked last turn, see pictures after), we should capture Yekaterinburg (with support reinforcing from Uzbeks by road) and raze Kufah (free space for Mecca) on turn 0. (only the top defender might have better than 90% against our highly promoted CR Zerks)
3. Castle have been built or should be finished in 2t in all border cities. Troops are waiting
except those still in transit (might be a few GOTO).
4. we have around 850g (and could earn around 450 with 0% research for a few turn)






Jabah

PS : I didn't reconfigure the cities for post GA time (also some building that were in the queue after Oromos might not be optimum)

save --> http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/819/LotR24_AD-1425.zip

 

[T_McC]

Well, a couple of things before actually looking at the save ...

Cathy won't have many Gunpowder-based units because nothing upgrades to Muskets (or their UU replacements). Whatever she'll have, she'll build from scratch. No cash upgrading to be done.

Carracks full of CR 'zerks is good. Carracks full of CR, Amphibious Redcoats is better. Berzerks upgrade to Redcoats and keep the Amphibious promotion.

So I suspect war is in the offing in about 2-3 turns. I think units can upgrade in port without leaving the boats.

One other thing to remember: Redcoats will ignore the defensive bonuses of Castles and Walls, so bombardment may be unnecessary at most cities.

 

[T_McC]

Now looking at the save ...

Essentially all of Cathy's Army is in Novgorod. The city has a Castle and is on a hill, but CR Redcoats should still have an advantage. Probably worth dragging the seige units along, but I doubt we need to wait for defenses to be bombed down to 0%. Once we have that city it's merely a matter of how fast we can walk to her other cities.

I think it is worth the stop to upgrade all of our 'zerks in the boats to Redcoats. Sal is showing Shock Samurai and CG III LB's as defenders, no need to lose any units. Plus, if we are taking significant damage while attacking we lose most of the mobility advantages of being in the Carracks due to waiting to heal. We can also merge the two floating stacks in Sury's lands and conquer him. No need for Vassals! On a related note: Divine Right is out there, and Versailles hasn't been built yet. I suspect Qin will build it, primarily because he's the only one with the technology and enough cities to build it. If we get a GE that would be a worthwhile project.

Theocracy is an excellent defensive measure to ensure we don't catch Buddhism. Checking the map for Buddhist cities on our continent ... none for now, but Suvy and Cathy are in OR and potentially vulnerable.

We are ahead of Justinian by Paper, Education, Liberalism, Banking, PP, Replaceable Parts and Rifling. I'm having a hard time viewing him as a threat.

There is one more lux available for trade. We're going to get a big hit when we declare war. I would run all cash until we've upgraded everything we want to upgrade. The research will pick up after the wars, which I think will go quite quickly due to our overwhelming advantage in the field. Just remember to promote the Oromo's with > 10 XP prior to upgrading so as not to lose XP.

Seems like we need to wait about 5 turns to really start this war right, with Redcoat stacks in each theater.

 

[Arathorn]

I agree on waiting just a few turns to upgrade our units to Redcoats before attacking. We didn't research and trade our way to Rifling so we could attack with 'zerks! Redcoats aren't as powerful as they used to be, being essentially rifles against older troops, but that's still a tremendous thing. We should chew through everything, once Novgorod falls.

We might want to consider capturing those cities of Sal's in the south, so we don't have to mess with partisans and finding a city to build a settler in the middle of a war. Just a thought.

Looking good.

Roster:
LKendter
Jabah
Refar -- UP NOW
T_McC -- on deck
Arathorn

Arathorn

 

[Refar]

Got the save took a quick look.

GS would bulb around 75% from Chemistry, and there is no way to make it bulb anything else soon, as Chmistry is rather high on his priority... Chemistry is nice, but no immediate benefit, i think...

OR Academy in Susa ? The immediate benefit is = ... but at some point we will want it, and popping GP's becomes harder/slower late in the game...

 

[Jabah]

Upgrading Zerks : quite nice but expansive and we won't have the money for 10 (ie 2000g) before long. Especially considering that we need to upgrade around 10 Oromos as well as they will absorb Cathy main forces.

My view on timing now should be :
1. Upgrade only the "best" (see below) 2 Zerks in each stack right now (which should be enough) using all our cash (even if you need to be in Port, you can re-embark them in the same turn by clicking the icon even if upgrading force them to disembarkand)
2. Declare next turn (which will mean all the castles will be ready on the IBT), 3. Capture Yekaterinburg, raze Kufah (or keep, but not sure we can send reinforcement with cultural situation)
3. With the money from capture/raze + gold from next turn, upgrade Oromos (probably 4 in total) in border cities (including 1 in Yekaterinburg if we move 1 Oromo SW in advance this turn).

Regarding upgrading
- The "best" units to upgrade are the one just after a promotion (try to fish the next promotion with the ones missing a few XP).

- It goes without saying (but better safe than sorry), when upgrading units that have more than 13XP (if 13XP is a level for charismatic ?), we should promote them to avoid losing 'free promotion'.

- I had a look at "Drill IV" on the ingame civilopedia, and I am not that sure that it is really much better than going the "Combat xxx" line (a few extra 1st strike, more immunity vs collateral mainly). Somehow I thought I was left with the impression that it was awsome, but can't see really why (is civilopedia wrong ?).

- I would upgrade the Medic3 war charriot to Cata and fish the missing 28th XP to promote him to "leadership?'" (the doubling gain XP) and then keep fishing XP on weak unit to keep promoting him. Of course keep him in a big stack (in city if possible) so he won't be a defender before anyone else.
Facing 'targeting' Ballista Elephant, having him as a war charriot is asking for trouble anyway... (I just remember the BE power, otherwise I would have promoted him even without asking). By the way are BE targeting effect working when attacking a city ? (if yes, then the medic should go in unreachable position just 1 tile backward).


Jabah

PS: another question regarding Technology.
Chemistry, Divine Right, Astronomy (and maybe Nationalism) are out AND for trade (and for most not at monopoly) but would cost us either Education (probably OK) or PP (probably not). Deal or no deal ?

 

[Jabah]

Another though regarding the soon to arrive GG (hopefully) : at some point we want an military academy in London, so depending on tech trading and research we might have to save him for a few turns

Jabah

 

[Arathorn]

Academy in Susa would be my vote for the GS. Or a GA.

Regarding Drill IV, 2 extra first strikes is really quite powerful. It's not too huge a deal with nearly equal strength, but if the drill unit is more powerful, it's immense in preventing damage. Even at about even strength, 2 first strikes is, in enough samples, about one free extra hit at the beginning. Put a drill IV longbow in a city on a hill or a drill IV rifle (redcoat) in a city with defensive bonuses and watch enemies break upon it. I had a drill III (didn't quite have the xp for the fourth drill) machine gun absorb 4 galleons worth of attacking grenadiers be at full hp when my turn started. It can be huge.

Agreed on saving the GG for military academy in London. We're probably not TOO far from that tech, actually.

BE targetting doesn't work against cities (I was able to check that in-game on my turns). And you don't really get to pick which unit to attack. BEs just attack mounted units first, in decreasing strength, and only then get to non-mounted units.

Tech-wise, I would think now would be a reasonable time to use up much of our WFYABTA limit. Education should be quite fine to trade and I'd see how much it can fetch us. Yes, it gives the AI universities and the tech benefits of Newton's, but those do take a while to build and we can really use the techs now. Nationalism and drafting some rifles (painful happiness hit, though) would be extremely handy.

Arathorn

 

[Jabah]

BE targetting doesn't work against cities (I was able to check that in-game on my turns). And you don't really get to pick which unit to attack. BEs just attack mounted units first, in decreasing strength, and only then get to non-mounted units.

Arathorn

In that case, I would still promote the war charriot to help him win offensive easy battle, he is just right now C1 so still would be the weakest unit in a "horse" stack. (Or promote to camel archer so he is by far the weakest while still being able to participate)

Jabah

 

[LKendter]

Tech-wise, I would think now would be a reasonable time to use up much of our WFYABTA limit. Education should be quite fine to trade and I'd see how much it can fetch us. Yes, it gives the AI universities and the tech benefits of Newton's, but those do take a while to build and we can really use the techs now. Nationalism and drafting some rifles (painful happiness hit, though) would be extremely handy.

When was Newton's added to Civ 4?

 

[Arathorn]

Oxford, then. Whatever.

Arathorn

P.S. I need more sleep.