LotR6 - Progressive Paranoia

[JMB]

After having to deal with all the troops the AI sent against Bunker Hill each turn, I am really glad I didn't have T-hawk's turn...

1710 AD - Nothing much to do... IBT, we get a GL on defense at Bunker Hill. The Aztecs land a couple of units on the backside of Bunker Hill. Ship! (I think you can figure out what I really said...) I guess I should have looked at the map a bit more closely as the Japanese walk into an undefended city (Bayonne) with a 1 hp tank. According to Herodotus, we are the happiest nation of the world...

1715 AD - We recapture Bayonne. I was only able to get another 7 mech inf into Bunker Hill, so I hope it holds this turn... IBT, the city holds.

1720 AD - Troop shuffle. I send the mech inf army to the incense hill along with the workers. IBT, we come close to losing Bunker Hill (ie, down to 5 or 6 highly damaged, weak, defenders), but it holds... The Aztecs begin the UN and land a mech inf outside of Strasbourg.

1725 AD - Our Sipahi army takes out the mech inf threatening Strasbourg. I build an airport on the incense hill and airlift ~10 mech inf over. Then we move the mech inf army back into the city. IBT, we lose our 20 hp mech inf army.

1730 AD - Troop shuffling. IBT, the French request an audience, but we refuse.

1735 AD - We take out one of the Japanese artillery stacks (5 units) that has been pestering Bunker Hill.

1740 AD - We kill almost all of Japan's tanks (~16). IBT, death and more death are dealt to the Aztec forces...

1745 AD - We take out the second set of Japanese artillery that was harassing Bunker Hill. IBT, we kill several enemy troops.

1750 AD - Nothing much.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make any real headway against the Aztecs or the Japanese... Both the Aztecs and Japan keep hurling themselves at Bunker Hill, and we keep beating them back. Even though they lose many troops each turn, overall, it seems that they only lose 2-3 troops per turn. We really need to get more artillery over to Bunker Hill and to that end, there is a transport loaded with artillery in Birmingham. However, if used, it'll be a suicide mission. We might want to consider rushing a couple of battleships in Bunker Hill to take out the Japanese and Aztec battleships plaguing our shores (the 2 destroyers in Birmingham are no help because they can't kill anyone and make it back to port without being killed. In fact, they can't even make it to Bunker Hill safely...)

I've shifted most of our military production to tanks to send over to Bunker Hill (I think it is safe now from whatever the AI sends towards it...). I think we need to make an assault on the small cities to our East and West as these seem to be the cities the Aztec battleships are going to heal (and so maybe we'll be able to land a transport, or two, safely and begin destroying their navy...). I've noticed that the AI preferentially attacks Bunker Hill over our fortified mech inf in the fields. We could use this to our advantage if we mount an assault soon. Another option might be to shift our focus from Bunker hill to someplace like Taejon and Shimoneski as neither the Japanese nor the Aztecs is likely to be able to cope with our assault and it might divert their attention from Bunker Hill for awhile...

Strasbourg will complete a barracks next turn. Then we can upgrade our infantry on that island to mech inf.

Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LOTR6PP1750AD.zip

Good luck Arathorn! I hope you can make some headway...

JMB

EDIT: BTW, our workers on the mainland are on auto-pollution clean-up.

 

[Skyfish]

Checking F3 the Aztecs still have 114 MechInfs....we need to beeline to Modern Armour.

 

[Arathorn]

Got it. Not sure whether it will be tonight or tomorrow night, but I'm looking forward to it. Trying to expand a beachhead is always an ... interesting proposition. If the Aztecs are working on the UN, though, we'll need to steal Fission relatively soon and rush it if/when we get another GL.

Arathorn

 

[Gothmog]

Solid turns JMB.

Another beach-head might work to our advantage - the AI isn't good at two front wars. Don't know how feasable that is though.

We don't want to lose by diplo. The aztecs could win the vote given that everyone is at war with us.

Once we get to modern armor it's game over for the AI. So I would say getting the UN and holding our beachhead are our top priorities. We want to build up our tank force for upgrades with our still functioning Leo's bonus. At that point we can use our whole treasury because we wont need any more techs. I don't think it will come to nukes in this game.

 

[Skyfish]

Upgrades are nice however either we steal our way to MA or research it ourselves both ways will bankrupt us so no immediate upgrades possible.
How far are we from MA right now ? Quite a long way (in Modern Age times that is...) no ?
There is enough money in the bank to steal Fission right now though, we have been getting a lot of GLs lately I sure hope the RNG is not going to play us one of her nasty twist

 

[Gothmog]

Yes, as far as I know we are always keeping an extra 1000 in the bank for the 50 gpt bonus. That is good because the 50 gpt can be used to speed research. Once we get SF we can spend that thousand on upgrades immediately, then our treasury will grow quickly due to no need to research any more.

To get SF we want to research Fission first to avoid a diplo loss (true about relying on a GL, I would put a high producing city on a prebuild just in case - can be swapped once we get one, then just save it for the UN). Then Ecology and SF. I don't know our research rate but that is usually quite a while. Still I would rather have a good kill ratio and keep our tank force than go for tanks vs. MI fortified in cities.

 

[Skyfish]

I am not advocating going now on the offensive, on the opposite.
As said earlier I believe we should go as fast as possible towards Modern Armor. I would steal Fission though not resarch it, we have almost 5K treasury

Taken a look at the save : Ecology is available in 9 turns at -139g deficit (making the 7 turns at -526gpt really not worth it).
Seems like Rocketry has been discovered already but that's a gut feeling only...
Ecology has some beakers towards it already so switching to Fission would make it more expensive 13 turns at -150gpt and 10 turns at -380gt

 

[T-hawk]

Originally posted by JMB
the Japanese walk into an undefended city (Bayonne) with a 1 hp tank.

I'll take the blame for that... but it was easy to lose track of 1 tank amongst all the hundreds I was fighting

Then we move the mech inf army back into the city. IBT, we lose our 20 hp mech inf army.

I said that we'd be losing the armies if we kept them in the city If the army is the leading defender, it only takes two or three attacks to knock it down to 4-5 HP, and then it's just as vulnerable as a regular unit. Armies can deter the AI and are very useful in counterattacking, but can't hold up in a sustained fight on defense (and once damaged to regular-unit levels, it's there for good as it won't heal much.)

I don't blame you for putting the army back in the city without actually having seen how fast they got slaughtered - isn't a 4-mech army supposed to be the best defender in the game?

1745 AD - We take out the second set of Japanese artillery that was harassing Bunker Hill.

You have no idea how frustrating and aggravating those were to me. Well, you probably do, since you did have them bombing Bunker for several turns too. Believe me, you've made considerable headway compared to where I was.

there is a transport loaded with artillery in Birmingham. However, if used, it'll be a suicide mission.

I'd say to Arathorn to send the suicide transport - I did so with one on my turn. That's the only way to make any headway at all here short of nukes. Even modern armors won't turn the tide very quickly - they still require heavy arty support to crack mechs in cities. And if our enemies get them too - . I wouldn't rush battleships, though; it'd take at least 5-6 of them to get within hailing distance of naval parity.

As for research, stay on the minimum on Ecology, a tech for free is very very valuable! Then we can push to maximum deficit on Synth Fibers and get there just about as soon anyway.

Check the beaker cost on Rocketry (beaker income * turns remaining); if it's under 9,700, somebody has it.

 

[Arathorn]

More artillery to Bunker is worth suiciding a transport, I agree. If the spot is open, so that the artillery can be reached, I will absolutely be sending the ship across.

Min run on Ecology? OK. I'll keep that going.

If somebody has Rocketry, I'll check that, too. My first priority on the tech front, however, has to be Fission. I don't want a UN loss after all this. When I get a successful steal from the Aztecs, I can see what techs they have. I'll pick Fission, obviously, but I can see what else they have and use that information.

Question for JMB (and maybe T-hawk): With the Jap artillery stacks gone, would walls have a chance of surviving in Bunker? Is it worth trying to build them again? How much bombardment are we sustaining at this point?

Also, has anybody drafted recently? If not, it's probably worth it, just for sheer number of defenders. Even a 2 hp MI can win some battles (and hopefully promote) and is one less attacker hitting wounded better defenders.

As for rushing battleships, I might rush one in Bunker, if I get a wealth of leaders. One there can probably attack and retreat to safety. But it'd be a leader-rush, not a cash rush.

What's the air superiority situation? That's another one I would like to know before heading in? How bad is it? Do we have any fighters in the area?

Arathorn

 

[JMB]

T-hawk,

About the tank, it wasn't a big deal. We have enough artillery over there and 2 Sipahi armies, so it really isn't a problem dealing with the lame AI naval invasions.

I remembered your comments about moving the mech inf back into the city, but we had no more defenders in the city (just a bunch of damaged offensive units; I wasn't able to ship over any mech inf as the port was blocked, and the troops I airlifted to the hills had all their movement points used up...). Personally, I think without having moved the army back into the city, we would have lost it...

We definitely have enough money for a safe steal of Fission from the Aztecs (it will cost around 3800 gold).

WRT rushing battleships, I wasn't thinking about getting naval parity, but just a ship or two to clear our transport lanes (right now, 7-10 battleships are clogging our port...) and kill off any ships we redline with artillery (or bombers) rather than letting them limp away to heal again. Then again, if we are able to take out the cities where they are healing, we'll probably take out a bunch of battleships as well...

Do you really think min sci on Ecology and then max sci on Synth Fibers will get us to MA at the same time? I agree that a free tech is very valuable, but we have something like 30 turns left on our min sci Ecology run right now... If we can get Ecology in 9 turns and then Synth Fibers in say 20 turns (I'm guessing), it seems like this would be faster.

JMB

EDIT: If we can steal rocketry, we could build a couple of cruise missiles to take out the damaged battleships...

 

[Gothmog]

I did some drafting on my turns but that was awhile ago.

I've had good luck doing immediate steals under these conditions before (while at war in the modern era).

 

[T-hawk]

would walls have a chance of surviving in Bunker? Is it worth trying to build them again? How much bombardment are we sustaining at this point?

I was rushing them sometimes even with it getting bombarded out right away. The turn order has the Aztecs going before the Japanese, so if I rushed a wall it was pretty useful against Aztec defenders for a turn (sometimes) before the Japanese knocked it down.

JMB cleared out the land artillery (I didn't see the Aztecs using any) but they've still got a bunch of battleships and bombers that are bombing.


Drafting - I did a few on my turn but not a whole lot, because of happiness problems. Places like the corrupt southern English cities could probably be drafted a lot, though.

The happiness is an interesting issue I forgot to mention. With the max WW in effect, there is a maximum number of citizens that any of our cities can work. Beyond a certain point, you can't add any more laborers. Under normal circumstances, you can add two citizens to a city and make one an entertainer, which works because entertainers do not generate overcrowding unhappiness. But they DO generate WW unhappiness, meaning that any entertainer in any city is basically doing nothing other than keeping himself happy.


Rushing battleship in Bunker - I thought of it and wanted to do so, but the problem is getting the resources to the city since it can't hang on to a harbor or airport. I forget, does the airstrip there count for a trade route connection?


Air superiority - as bad as naval on my turn at least. I lost one bomber to an intercept and we had no fighters in the area.


JMB: Do you really think min sci on Ecology and then max sci on Synth Fibers will get us to MA at the same time?

Yes, if not sooner, in fact. Think of it this way - as long as we spend all our gold in deficit research before Synth Fibers is finished, then the limiting factor is the total income, not the beaker income. And we can in fact spend the remaining ~25 turns of surplus that we'll get during Ecology, in 20 turns of max research on Synth.

It isn't more than a 3-5 turn difference either way, which won't make the difference in winning the game, so let's take the conservative tech-for-free route.

Or we could choose to go for Space Flight instead for nukes, if we manage to steal Rocketry and Fission. (However, delivering tac nukes to the combat area may present its own set of problems. Suicide nuke subs could extend reach from Birmingham out to some of the Aztec cities, but that might get expensive...)

I've had good luck doing immediate steals under these conditions before (while at war in the modern era)

Perhaps, although I'd add this caveat: if our spy with one of the civs gets caught, we should only do safe steals with the other lest we lose it. Also both our opponents are Communist and we aren't.

 

[Skyfish]

The Japs are not even in Modern Age so we can only steal from Aztecs, I too would not go for Safe steal but what do I know

 

[JMB]

Arathorn,

I was also periodically rushing walls and barracks in Bunker Hill, but they generally didn't last more than one turn. Now that the artillery stacks have been captured, I think we might be able to hang onto them for a bit longer (and besides, walls only cost ~70 gold to rush...) The main bombardment we are taking is from the battleships (~ 10 of them).

I didn't end up drafting because a lot of our cities are already pretty unhappy (but there are several core cities that could manage being drafted).

Air superiority. Even worse than our naval situation... We currently have no fighters and only 2 bombers (for some reason, I can never seem to remember that you can't see enemy bombing runs with the animations turned off. If I had seen them, I think I would have built a couple of fighters...) I haven't been having any problems with our bombers getting taken out by fighters (although I have only been using them to bombard battleships in our territory by Bunker Hill).

WRT the suicide transport, you'll have to wait a turn or so as the route is mostly blocked (there is one spot open, but we wouldn't be able to unload the troops into the city and would have to pull several defenders out of the city to protect them...

T-hawk, thanks for the info about WW, happiness, and researching.

JMB

 

[T-hawk]

Fighters only protect within a two-square range; the one that I got shot down attacked a battleship two squares north of Tepexpan. I think we can be fairly sure they don't have any carriers there, at least.

And yeah, I too admit to forgetting to build fighters because battle animations were off - although we really did need all of our production capacity (that wasn't building useless police stations, heh) for mechs to defend the city.

 

[Arathorn]

I'm too exhausted for an in-depth report tonight. I'm mainly on to upload the save. I'll try to give a better report tomorrow.

Bunker Hill is now safe. I razed one Aztec city and have almost enough forces in place to raze a second. I could've done a different one more easily, but I'm hoping for a big navy score there.

We own the UN, too. Aztecs have Rocketry, at least, that we don't.

Save file at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr6-1770ad.zip

Arathorn

 

[Gothmog]

OK I guess I'm up then, good news about the UN. I would hate to lose that way. I should have some time to play tonight, but I can never be sure.

Skyfish -- next up
T-hawk
JMB
Arathorn
Gothmog -- Got it

 

[Arathorn]

I tried three Careful steals against the Aztecs (middle one). The first was unsuccessful but our spy escaped. The second got us Fission. The third was captured, trying to get Rocketry. We can try to plant again on Gothmog's first full turn.

The Aztecs and Japanese are as gassed as they're going to get. They're out of spare units to throw at us, so we only get their newly-produced units each turn. For the Japs, that's 8-12 tanks. For the Aztecs, it's ~20 MI/tanks. Bunker Hill can counter-attack and kill both stacks at this point...or it can kill the Japs and let the Aztecs die on the walls. I used both tactics, depending on the need/artillery luck, etc.

About halfway through my turns, we got enough troops on A/J continent to feel safe being attacked and to do something else besides. I razed the new Aztec city SW of Bunker Hill, which was lightly defended.

At this point, we're gonna have to just overwhelm defenders, much as we were almost overwhelmed. I don't think I quite have enough tanks ready to move east....I would send another 20 or so onto the defended hill on turn 1 and then attack on turn 2, barring lucky artillery strikes on turn 1.

We acquired a new hill, this one in Aztec territory. The army there is 3 tanks and one MI. Another tank army is healing in Bunker Hill (yes, we're far enough along that armies can actually heal in BH). A third army (this one all MI) is also in BH. I think the all-tank army should be healed enough to move to the new hill on turn 1, so it can participate in the attack on turn 2. If it dies, it dies. We'll make more.

The naval situation is relatively clear right now. We're still WAY behind but I did manage to sink a few Aztec ships in port and catch another one too close to English Island, so the ship there could kill and return safely. Mostly, though, we're just still way behind. I tweaked ships with a single artillery hit, so they'd run away and heal, buying us time but not helping long-term at all. I leader-rushed one battleship in BH, but he died against a red-lined defender and my leader luck has dried up the last couple turns. This is still definitely A/J territory.

In the air, we're at near-parity. I built a few fighters in cities that could do 40 spt but not 50 spt, and so could build fighters in two turns but took 3 for tanks/MI. They've been intercepting bombers and we're slowing getting close to the AI air presence. Keeps our troops healthier and allows buildings to survive in BH.

BH, which is all that really seems to matter, now has walls, barracks, and an airport. They've survived for a while. It might be worth cash-rushing a harbor, so we can leader-rush vet battleships to clear up the shipping lanes, as another couple dozen artillery would be very helpful, as would shipping across settlers, eventually.

Japs landed 8 tanks on England Island at one point. Artillery and sipahi on hand took care of that problem, though, pretty easily. Japs landed one tank on West France, which was dispatched. The MI at In'chon were much more problematic, however, and I had to rush a transport over there to keep the island from falling. Some of those troops might want to come back....

Our only benefit at this point is kill-ratio. The AIs will not get any more gassed than they are, so we need to absorb the attack each turn and keep pushing forward. At this point, the AI is still targetting BH above everything else, which is very nice as it allows us to push. The Japs/Aztecs will occasionally get in each other's way, too, making for an occasional double-sized attack. Just know they're coming. Bunker Hill can take it. Don't worry.

I would strongly consider waking the settler in BH and sending it with about 8-12 MI (in a couple/three turns) to a hill 3S of BH (deep in Aztec territory) and forming a city there as a forward outpost. It will give us access to more Aztec cities and is on good defensive terrain. Plus, it might let BH start growing and help clear shipping lanes a bit. Workers to connect will be nice, but will probably have to come from razing Aztec cities.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but that's the gist of it. It's major war focused around BH. Our ability to airlift troops (airstrip was a life-saver. GREAT thinking, T-hawk!) to the front has made that spot the place to be. And we're building up troops in the area, making it possible to push forward. I envision 3-4 turns of build-up near one city, followed by a massive push and huge tank death to raze one city. Repeat.

Recommended goals for Gothmog:
- Raze the city east of BH soon.
- Raze city north of BH.
- Plant a second city on A/J island.
- Get a spy in Aztecia.
- Steal Rocketry.

A second beachhead is a pipe-dream, as we have rather strong naval inferiority and essentially no other spots are reachable without a turn at sea, where our ships would soon find out how deep the ocean really is.

Another ramble -- if/when sending a suicide transport from English Island, it is necessary to send a suicide destroyer/battleship/empty transport first, because of the large number of subs in the area, too. I did this and am very glad I did, as my destroyer killed one sub and located another (couldn't move there because I'd already attacked once), saving my transport of artillery long enough for the artillery to unload.

Oh, yeah. I got 16 new artillery to Bunker, which helped a bit. Still not enough to bomb everything the AI throws at us to 1 hp, but enough for now. More would be good.

I think I've rambled long enough. Just lots and lots of killing.

Gothmog -- you're UP!
Skyfish -- on deck

If you've got more questions, let me know and I'll try to get 'em answered.

Arathorn

 

[T-hawk]

It's just biding time waiting for either nukes or Modern Armors, by this point, and it'll probably take both to get any real sizable advantage. The only question is, which first. If not for the difficulty of delivering tactical nukes, I'd like to go for that first; I think I'd like to do so anyway just to see the strategic challenges involved.

Good turns yet again.

 

[Gothmog]

Well with all the cash saved through our 40 turn gambit I should be able to steal Rocketry shortly. If the AI researches Space Flight then we're on our way! Otherwise I will most likely go for SF first. My experience has been that that is enough to ensure victory - but I haven't been in this position before so we'll see.