Loyalty system already doesn't seem right

[Thibaulthc]

having the same problem / question as@sansa_stark :
I dont understand the +20 from citizen. Is it the rule when theres no foreign pressure ?

 

[blackbutterfly]

As someone pointed out on the forums Loyalty breaks TSL maps (those with Europe anyway) ->

(10-15 turns into the game France has already been eliminated due to Loyalty).

 

[pgm123]

It's probably a bit misleading to say that loyalty breaks Europe TSL maps since those were already broken.

 

[blackbutterfly]

It's probably a bit misleading to say that loyalty breaks Europe TSL maps since those were already broken.

This is the TSL Earth map that ships with R&F

Though they did ship a TSL Europe which is bigger and can accommodate Euro civs without it turning into a cluster****.

 

[Haggbart]

My main problem with loyalty right now is that while it is intended to make you think twice about conquering more and more of your neighbour's cities, right now it only forces you to wipe him/her completely off the map.
It doesn't make conquest any more difficult per se, it only makes limited conquest impossible in many circumstances.

 

[Gnarv]

I think the loyalty system needs a civ 3 like mechanic ( I think it was civ3). Combat units should emit loyalty pressure as well. A conquered city which is still surrounded by your entire army should NOT rebel. Giving each combat unit +1 or +2 loyalty if they stand within two tiles of a city would open the opportunity to conquer an enemy city by simply sieging it for a long time.

As it is now it's nearly impossible to hold a conquered city that is close to your enemy's other cities. My current tactic is to raze every single city except for their capital and fill up the gaps on the map with my own settlers.

 

[Horizons]

Played my first game of R&F tonight and not impressed ... at all.

I'm put off by the golden age and loyalty stuff and governors and don't feel excited about any of it.

Old bugs have returned too.

The development of this game must have been a total nightmare. Too many ADHD-afflicted millennial programmers and designers?

 

[pietro1990]

So how exactly do you get a domination victory if you never take a city near someones capital?

Take big cities with high population that make the biggest pressure if you take low population cities they will return immediatlly and revolt...

 

[Brian LeClaire]

Take big cities with high population that make the biggest pressure if you take low population cities they will return immediatlly and revolt...

That's not going to work though because if you're passing up smaller cities in an enemies territory, you're going to take a larger city, surrounded by all his other cities exerting loyalty pressure. There's no way you'll ever keep that city so you're in the exact same situation.

 

[pietro1990]

That's not going to work though because if you're passing up smaller cities in an enemies territory, you're going to take a larger city, surrounded by all his other cities exerting loyalty pressure. There's no way you'll ever keep that city so you're in the exact same situation.

Well let them revolt . and move you're army to their capital and big cities by the time you capture their big cities you can take the revolt cities by force again and they won't revolt anymore because the big cities next to it are in you're control

Just accept some will revolt. They will either flip back to you or you take them by force again

 

[Abraxis]

Played my first game of R&F tonight and not impressed ... at all.

I'm put off by the golden age and loyalty stuff and governors and don't feel excited about any of it.

Old bugs have returned too.

The development of this game must have been a total nightmare. Too many ADHD-afflicted millennial programmers and designers?

Are you really saying this game doesn't excite you because it was coded by ADHD afflicted millennial designers?

You're not at all concerned that this argument seems a little... impotent?

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

What I don't understand is why Capitals can flip/be affected by loyalty pressure? It makes no sense from a historic/realistic point of view.

Also, how much do military units present in the city lower the chances of a city flipping?

 

[blackbutterfly]

Are you really saying this game doesn't excite you because it was coded by ADHD afflicted millennial designers?

Ed Beach is not a millennial

Anton Strenger is younger though.

 

[acluewithout]

... A conquered city which is still surrounded by your entire army should NOT rebel. Giving each combat unit +1 or +2 loyalty if they stand within two tiles of a city would open the opportunity to conquer an enemy city by simply sieging it for a long time...

Agreed, either as an inherent quality of units or when some policy card is used. Although you might have to limit this to certain units (otherwise scouts will be flipping cities).

It doesn't feel realistic to me that having lots of units in a city wouldn't reduce the chance of rebellion.

What I don't understand is why Capitals can flip/be affected by loyalty pressure? It makes no sense from a historic/realistic point of view.

It feels like something that should happen very, very rarely. Likewise, I think a civ actually being wiped out by loyalty should be pretty rare too. Maybe there needs to be a policy card that subatantially boost the loyalty in a civ caps (but only in the cap)?

Does anyone think walls or forts should boost loyalty? I guess walls kind of boost loyalty, in that they give housing (at Monarchy) and pop generates loyalty.

 

[agonistes]

TCS scripted me a bit of code to add loyalty to palaces so capitals are tougher to flip.

By editing global parameters, you can also give a bonus that capitals exert on domestic cities. You might provide a much smaller bonus that caps exert on foreign cities. This would make caps loyalty black holes, but a city would lean towards its own cap.

Takes some of the cheese out, imo. I got tired of seeing caps flipping in about 10 turns.

 

[the ginger one]

I think a potential solution to the loyalty system would be giving it a trigger by a global age, medieval era for instance, to stop the incredibly early flips of cities.

 

[blackbutterfly]

I got tired of seeing caps flipping in about 10 turns.

Also: City-states!

In a TSL earth map, a city-state was captured (by Alex) so I accepted the Emergency to take the CS from Alex. But due to loyalty the CS became independent (a free state) and I got like 5000 gold!

Anyway...CSs should revert to their CS. They are basically independent states more or less.

That gave me the solution for caps flipping. Suppose London flips eliminating England. When it becomes "independent" again England should return to the game. Problem solved.

 

[Brian LeClaire]

A 10 pop city effect with no Governor or other effects in place, all -20

Victoria I wanted to get your thoughts on this situation. You'll see that the Mapuche in in blue and the Cree are in I guess navy blue. The Cree settled a city on the far side of the Mapuche. Not only were the Cree on a different continent from their capitol, they settled their city on the FAR side of the Mapuche entire civilization. You'll have to look at the mini map to see where the rest of the Cree cities are but they're North of the Mapuche with the Mapuche capitol right between them only 9ish tiles away. The Cree had zero loyalty issues with that city, it's fully loyal. I don't get this at all.

 

[Victoria]

I don't get this at all.

Distance. Loyalty pressure only goes 9 tiles. 1 city in range but it’s not enough to flip it Puel Mapu is 10 tiles away so not enough strength. You can get some idea of loyalty spread for the city by clicking on their emblem which gives a small loyalty line which you can then expand.

Then you can see the oppositions loyaly, here I can see I only have really to get 1 more pop in one of my cities to start flipping Chengdu, at least thats how I currently understand it.
If you look at the pop pressures in the city Chendu is currently only getting +0.3. Interestingly Wuhan is also getting pressure from my cities because it should be at +209 but is only +17.8. One city to the left and I would just fliup them I imagine.

 

[Brian LeClaire]

Distance. Loyalty pressure only goes 9 tiles. 1 city in range but it’s not enough to flip it Puel Mapu is 10 tiles away so not enough strength. You can get some idea of loyalty spread for the city by clicking on their emblem which gives a small loyalty line which you can then expand.

Then you can see the oppositions loyaly, here I can see I only have really to get 1 more pop in one of my cities to start flipping Chengdu, at least thats how I currently understand it.
If you look at the pop pressures in the city Chendu is currently only getting +0.3. Interestingly Wuhan is also getting pressure from my cities because it should be at +209 but is only +17.8. One city to the left and I would just fliup them I imagine.
View attachment 487999

Hmm interesting. So have we decided if it’s in fact working properly then?