ls612's C2C Units

[Hydromancerx]

Took my turn. Koshling is up.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@SO, ls612, DH or TB

Ok I ran into another unit problem. I was making a Jivaro Headhunter. It is made from the Mesoamerican Missionary with a custom skin. However it looks like it was made from the Dog Soldier but given a Staff and Headband. I want to unit to animate like the Dog Soldier and not a missionary. However when it loads it has no animations. How do I get it to use the Dog Soldier animations?

Here are the files ...

 

[SargontheGreat2]

@SO, ls612, DH or TB

Ok I ran into another unit problem. I was making a Jivaro Headhunter. It is made from the Mesoamerican Missionary with a custom skin. However it looks like it was made from the Dog Soldier but given a Staff and Headband. I want to unit to animate like the Dog Soldier and not a missionary. However when it loads it has no animations. How do I get it to use the Dog Soldier animations?

Here are the files ...

Some new cultures and units coming maybe?

 

[ls612]

@SO, ls612, DH or TB

Ok I ran into another unit problem. I was making a Jivaro Headhunter. It is made from the Mesoamerican Missionary with a custom skin. However it looks like it was made from the Dog Soldier but given a Staff and Headband. I want to unit to animate like the Dog Soldier and not a missionary. However when it loads it has no animations. How do I get it to use the Dog Soldier animations?

Here are the files ...

You probably made the NIF wrong. You might want to ask someone in the Unit Graphics area about this one.

 

[Hydromancerx]

You probably made the NIF wrong. You might want to ask someone in the Unit Graphics area about this one.

The NIF is the same as the Missonary (minus the shield) all that was done was editing the DDS texture files.

EDIT: I posted a topic for it in the custom unit section. You can find it here.

 

[strategyonly]

@SO, ls612, DH or TB

Ok I ran into another unit problem. I was making a Jivaro Headhunter. It is made from the Mesoamerican Missionary with a custom skin. However it looks like it was made from the Dog Soldier but given a Staff and Headband. I want to unit to animate like the Dog Soldier and not a missionary. However when it loads it has no animations. How do I get it to use the Dog Soldier animations?

Here are the files ...

Have you tried this :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=435755

 

[Hydromancerx]

Have you tried this :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=435755

I am aware of this thread. However can I do that kind of stuff yet. No.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Reviving this since there is a gap in balance and the combat mod is still in development. These units will be place holders until equipment can be put on units.

Obsidian Swordsman
Graphic: Jaguar Warrior type grpahic
Icon: (Need to make)
Type: Melee
Strength: 5
Movement: 1
Cost: 45
Req Tech: Obsidian Weapons
Req Resource: -
Req Building: -
Upgrades To: Light Swordsman

Special Abilities

• +20% City Attack
• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Obsidian Maceman
Graphic: Same As Stone Maceman
Icon: (Need to make)
Type: Melee
Strength: 4
Movement: 1
Cost: 40
Req Tech: Obsidian Weapons
Req Resource: -
Req Building: -
Upgrades To: Maceman

Special Abilities

• +10% City Attack
• +25% vs Melee Units
• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Obsidian Axeman
Graphic: Same as Stone Axeman
Icon: (Need to make)
Type: Melee
Strength: 4
Movement: 1
Cost: 40
Req Tech: Obsidian Weapons
Req Resource: -
Req Building: -
Upgrades To: Axeman

Special Abilities

• +50% vs Melee Units
• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Obsidian Spearman
Graphic: Same as Stone Spearman
Icon: (Need to make)
Type: Melee
Strength: 4
Movement: 1
Cost: 33
Req Tech: Obsidian Weapons
Req Resource: -
Req Building: -
Upgrades To: Spearman

Special Abilities

• +50% vs Mounted Units
• +50% vs Animal Units
• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

And changes to existing units.

-----

Stone Axeman
Upgrades To: Obsidian Maceman OR Obsidian Swordsman
Special Abilities

-----

Stone Maceman
Upgrades To: Obsidian Maceman OR Obsidian Swordsman

-----

Stone Spearman
Upgrades To: Obsidian Spearman OR Atl-Atl

-----

 

[ls612]

@Hydro:

I'm not seeing what the balance gap there is. Except for there not being an early swordsman (which I see as a good thing) the units progress at a reasonable rate. The Axeman comes not too long after the Stone Axeman and the jump is from 3 to 5 strength. Ditto with the Spearmen.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

The Archery units can get 2 upgrades before you get a Spearman or Axeman.

X10 = Stone Maceman (3)
X11 = Stone Axeman (3), Stone Spearman (3)
X12 =
X13 = Atlatlist (3), NEW UNITS HERE
X14 =
X15 =
X16 =
X17 = Horseman (6), Elephant Rider (7)
X18 =
X19 =
X20 = Archer (5)
X21 =
X22 =
X23 = Spearman (5) Javlineer (5)
X24 = Early Chariot (4), Chariot Archer (4)
X25 = Maceman (5), Axeman (5), Chariot (5)
X26 =
X27 =
X28 = Light Swordsman (7), Mounted Infantry (7)

That way its Obsidian Spearman (4) vs Horseman (6) instead of Obsidian Spearman (3). And Obsidian Maceman (4) vs Archer (5) rather than Stone Maceman (3).

 

[ls612]

@ls612

The Archery units can get 2 upgrades before you get a Spearman or Axeman.

X10 = Stone Maceman (3)
X11 = Stone Axeman (3), Stone Spearman (3)
X12 =
X13 = Atlatlist (3), NEW UNITS HERE
X14 =
X15 =
X16 =
X17 = Horseman (6), Elephant Rider (7)
X18 =
X19 =
X20 = Archer (5)
X21 =
X22 =
X23 = Spearman (5) Javlineer (5)
X24 = Early Chariot (4), Chariot Archer (4)
X25 = Maceman (5), Axeman (5), Chariot (5)
X26 =
X27 =
X28 = Light Swordsman (7), Mounted Infantry (7)

That way its Obsidian Spearman (4) vs Horseman (6) instead of Obsidian Spearman (3). And Obsidian Maceman (4) vs Archer (5) rather than Stone Maceman (3).

That is IMO a good thing though as it makes taking cities quite hard until the mid-Ancient era and gives all players a good chance to expand.

 

[DRJ]

Hydro, I like your suggestions a lot.


@lsd112

at the moment I only use Atl-Atls once I have them -- for city taking and defense (I usually even miss out on horse techs), the strength 3 units are not useable anymore. For the sake of realism I liked to have some additional somewhat effective units around Atl-Atl time to that fill the gap (the guys back then had range as well as close combat units),

Hydros Obsedian Units are ideal as long as we dont have the new combat mod.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have the Obsidian Maceman, Spearman and Axeman nearly done. However I am putting them on hold due to ls612's comments. I am unsure if I want to add them or not. Ideally TB's combat system would be best since we would not need new units but just equipment triggered then.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That is IMO a good thing though as it makes taking cities quite hard until the mid-Ancient era and gives all players a good chance to expand.

I'm not saying this for the sake of argument but rather for a perspective to add to consideration. While you say its a good thing but makes cities hard to capture until the mid-Ancient era, I have to somewhat disagree and agree at the same time. It makes cities tough to capture IF you don't have access to early riding units. IF you do, cities fall like a knife through butter. Keep in mind that the melee units can counter the melee units so they balance themselves if kept to similar strength ranges. But they can't effectively counter the riding units in this era unless they are able to gain just a little more strength, particularly the spears need this.

And in general, mounted units shouldn't be QUITE so dominant even during this era. Yes, I'm all for strong mounted units and all and yes some balance could be obtained by assigning some anti-city attack penalty to most if not all mounted units as has also been discussed, making them a field dominant fighting force. But take that away and then we have cities being TOO hard to take.

Again, I like tough to capture cities. But having to lemming tons of melee against the archery defenders at an era where maintaining the gold to support an effective army and the production to generate it takes the entire focus of the nation to achieve, making it THIS tough to take even a casually defended city gives little more than a feeling of imbalance. And again, we can get mounted units worth more than double the strength of their contemporary melee units and it just feels out of whack.

I wouldn't reduce the strengths of the mounted to bring this into balance. I'd prefer to recognize that there's a giant (2 pts is a lot when you're under 10!) leap in strength from the Prehistoric level melee units to the Classic era ones and try to fit something in between there.


Looking at JUST the tech X chart, it looks like they should be coming in somewhere at or around x16 and the plan has them coming in so quickly that they rapidly replace the Prehistoric ones. That said, I know how looking at the techs themselves change the perspectives on that somewhat.


IRT the equipment, I mentioned this elsewhere and said most of what I had to say in the other thread. However, as an additional note, it'd actually be nice if base strength increases were kept out of the equipment scheme. Yes, it CAN be done that way, but how do you rationalize it? Is it improved firepower (weapons) or defense (armor)? The numbers make strength equate to both Accuracy and Damage AND damage endurance/resistance and avoidance. No one portion of equipment quite accounts for this kind of effect.

So while I did include the ability to put strength modifiers on promotions, (thus potentially equipments) I've grown to believe they are best to be included on skill based promos and as negatives on affliction promos. That is until perhaps very late era tech upgrades on mech/robotic units are being implemented via equipments where it becomes more rational.

Does any of this make sense to you guys?

 

[ls612]

I'm not saying this for the sake of argument but rather for a perspective to add to consideration. While you say its a good thing but makes cities hard to capture until the mid-Ancient era, I have to somewhat disagree and agree at the same time. It makes cities tough to capture IF you don't have access to early riding units. IF you do, cities fall like a knife through butter. Keep in mind that the melee units can counter the melee units so they balance themselves if kept to similar strength ranges. But they can't effectively counter the riding units in this era unless they are able to gain just a little more strength, particularly the spears need this.
<snip>

I'm missing how this works. How does the Horseman (str 4) go through the Atl-Atl (str 4 and +50% for city defense and +25% for fortification and +20% for city defense buildings, so a total of almost 8) so well? Especially considering that they are more expensive than Atl-Atls.

 

[God-Emperor]

I'm missing how this works. How does the Horseman (str 4) go through the Atl-Atl (str 4 and +50% for city defense and +25% for fortification and +20% for city defense buildings, so a total of almost 8) so well? Especially considering that they are more expensive than Atl-Atls.

A horseman is strength 6. They also get +25% vs. archers which cancels the atlatlist's +25% vs. mounted (which you did not mention) and the horseman gets +25% for attacking on various terrains (which may not apply). Atlatlists don't have a built-in city defense bonus (so no +50%, it is the archer that gets that). It is likely to be a roughly even fight with the advantage depending on promotions and whether or not the city is on a hill, but the horseman probably usually has a slight advantage and has a built-in 25% withdraw so even when they lose they may survive.

Spears (and their longer variety, pikes) are the Civ4 standard defense unit for fending off mounted units. But a stone spearman is just about useless against a horseman unless it is on some pretty good defensive terrain. An obsidian spearman would improve that situation.

But I'll point out that "obsidian maceman" is rather silly. Obsidian is not going to make a better mace than most other stones. It is also brittle and therefore inclined to shatter, which is not surprising as it is a type of glass but is not exactly a good property for a mace to have. The value of obsidian in weaponry is that it can form extremely sharp edges.

It also seems to me that in order to make the obsidian-x units you should be required to have obsidian.

 

[Hydromancerx]

It also seems to me that in order to make the obsidian-x units you should be required to have obsidian.

If we do that should the Spearmen require a metal resource to make? As of now they just are sped up but do not require a metal resource.

But I'll point out that "obsidian maceman" is rather silly. Obsidian is not going to make a better mace than most other stones. It is also brittle and therefore inclined to shatter, which is not surprising as it is a type of glass but is not exactly a good property for a mace to have. The value of obsidian in weaponry is that it can form extremely sharp edges.

Not necessarily. If done like Macuahuitl where its obsidian blades between wood and then taking that into a spherical shape could result in a deadly bladed club. If not spiked too.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Please don't screw up the mounted Early units. They are and were the superior military unit over melee.

The problem is:You have spiked club at 3 str but upgrades(???) to a stone axe which is also 3 str? The stone OR Obsidain axe should be 4 str.

You have wooden spear at 3 str, upgrades(???) to a stone spear at 3 str(???), again same problem stone spear OR obsidian Spear should be 4 str.

And when you do get copper/bronze axe or mace at 5 str they are "lemmings" as T-brd pointed out. I rarely build them any more and only for special cases. As the main melee unit of that time frame (copper working) they've been stripped of their strengths.

Rams are another not quite right unit too.

My 2 .

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

I agree that the early mounted units should be left alone. And the spiked club is 3 for a reason In the upgrade pathing The Clubman (2) upgrades to the Wooden Spearman (3) OR the Stone Clubman (3). Both have around 25% to their bonus while when they upgrade to the full unit its 50%. Its the best to simulate like 3.5 strength. And the Atlatlist (4) comes after the Stone Spearman so we could not have them jump up to 4 already.

The Obsidian units have strength of 4 so they are at the same level as the Atlatlist. Which was what I was wanting to do ever since we had an Obsidian Weapon tech made.

Thus now things should be more balanced for Prehistoric progression.

Early Prehistoric
Melee: Brute (1) / Clubman (2) / Spiked Clubman (3)
Ranged: Stone Thrower (1)

Middle Prehistoric
Melee (Mace): Stone Clubman (3)
Melee (Axe): Stone Axeman (3)
Melee (Spear): Wooden Spearman (3) / Stone Spearman (3)
Ranged: Slinger (3)

Late Prehistoric
Melee (Mace): Obsidian Clubman (4)
Melee (Axe): Obsidian Axeman (4)
Melee (Spear): Obsidian Spearman (4)
Ranged: Atlatlist (4)

Ancient
Melee (Mace): Maceman (5)
Melee (Axe): Axeman (5)
Melee (Spear): Spearman (5)
Ranged (Archer): Archer (5)
Ranged (Javelin): Javlineer (5)

 

[DRJ]

Please don't screw up the mounted Early units. They are and were the superior military unit over melee.

I agree that the early mounted units should be left alone.

Just give them the -50% on city attack if city has palisades, earth wall or wall already!
it's not as if they could fly over the sticks and stones like unicorns!

I've suggested it weeks ago and since then I've read numerous posts of other players requesting the same change - but not one argument as why the -50% city attack should NOT be included ("just leave it so" is no argument because an argument needs facts as a foundation)

Horses are not good against cities. It's a fact!

While they may be able to storm through a size 1 village in tantivy and set it on fire, once it has a palisade that possibility is very much gone.

So is it too hard to set a city attack malus tag that is modified to only work once the attacking tile has a certain building in it?

If so, I would request the -50% city attack anyway without that special tag - because if the villagers aren't caught by surprise they could still throw out stuff on narrow(!) the streets and have improvised barricades against the horses.


If still resistance about it: let's vote!

Note that the -50% city attack is easily lifted by a Great Commander nearby having +50% attack. But cutting through butter coming out of a fridge: not so easy anymore.