ls612's C2C Units

[Hydromancerx]

@DRJ

But don't units get a penalty from the city defenses when trying to attack anyways? Its only units like Swordsmen or Elephants who have city attack bonus (unless they take a city attack promotion). And if your siege units like the log ram takes out the walls then I don't see why they need to be penalized when attacking.

 

[DRJ]

Yes I agree to that logic. However, the city defenses given by palisades for example should be diversified then.

A palisade of sticks might represent a -10% to melee trying to enter a city but a -50% to horses -- as they can't squeeze through between the loose sticks as easily as non mounted troops.

So if the city defenses were adjusted to give different effects against different unittypes I would gladly agree.

We know, for instance, that certain medieval city defenses are turned off when gunpowder/explosive units attack a castle city, while swordsmen attacking the same site still suffer it.

So we could reproduce this effect for horses, imo- of course the other way around: so regarding the palisade example: while the city defense for attacking melee would be brought down to 0% by a ram, the horses woudl still suffer a -40%

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am not sure how you would make building defenses such as palisades give different defenses for different units and/or unit types. New code would need to be made.

Likewise I do not know of a way unit wise to do it. Since any - city attack is going to be across the board. And most horse units cannot fortify anyways so city defense is hard for a mounted unit to do.

However in my experience it is useful to keep some mounted units in your city and then have them run out and attack units that have not reached your city yet. Especially if you can take out siege units before they start bombarding your city then run back to the city to heal.

 

[DRJ]

I think you misunderstood me a bit. Yeah sure mounted units inside a city are good for excursions.

What I meant is that for city attacking units a palisade might have different values that come in play against them. While a melee unit attacking a palisade city would have a -10% to overcome on his way inside, a horse unit would have to overcome -50%.

The way the "explosives render castle defenses obsolete" tag works could be adjusted to this scenario, by

A) giving melee a new pseudo-explosives class

B) giving the palisade/earth wall/wall two different defense values, one "normal", one adressing the pseudo-explosives class.

So if a ram is near and it bombards +10% palisades city defenses by -10%, the melee could march in without suffering any penalty, while a horse would still have -40% until the ram would clear out the rest as well.

The first waves entering a city with partly damaged defenses would usually NOT be horses, so this suggestion represents that.

Right now, the tactic of amassing stacks of horses that cut through enemy villages with palisades/walls without much resistance is a real balancing problem, so doing nothing about it doesn't seem right to me - especially as I am not the only one feeling this is flawed somehow.

Sure the horses could always control the surroundings of strongholds but regarding city fighting they were weaker than others, while swordsmen were stronger.

Why not represent the weaker part and only the stronger then??!

After alll, we do have negative city defense values as well since some time now- and to my understanding, rightfully so.

 

[strategyonly]

This thread is too long, need a new one, Hydro?? Maybe called C2C units or something like that??

 

[ls612]

This thread is too long, need a new one, Hydro?? Maybe called C2C units or something like that??

This is far from the longest thread here, and making new threads will just confuse newcomers.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I like this thread.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think you misunderstood me a bit. Yeah sure mounted units inside a city are good for excursions.

What I meant is that for city attacking units a palisade might have different values that come in play against them. While a melee unit attacking a palisade city would have a -10% to overcome on his way inside, a horse unit would have to overcome -50%.

The way the "explosives render castle defenses obsolete" tag works could be adjusted to this scenario, by

A) giving melee a new pseudo-explosives class

B) giving the palisade/earth wall/wall two different defense values, one "normal", one adressing the pseudo-explosives class.

So if a ram is near and it bombards +10% palisades city defenses by -10%, the melee could march in without suffering any penalty, while a horse would still have -40% until the ram would clear out the rest as well.

The first waves entering a city with partly damaged defenses would usually NOT be horses, so this suggestion represents that.

Right now, the tactic of amassing stacks of horses that cut through enemy villages with palisades/walls without much resistance is a real balancing problem, so doing nothing about it doesn't seem right to me - especially as I am not the only one feeling this is flawed somehow.

Sure the horses could always control the surroundings of strongholds but regarding city fighting they were weaker than others, while swordsmen were stronger.

Why not represent the weaker part and only the stronger then??!

After alll, we do have negative city defense values as well since some time now- and to my understanding, rightfully so.

Interesting concept but would require more tags AND would be more effective in maintaining game balance IF the buildings could be somehow directly targeted by bombardment attacks - just reducing city defenses would have no effect on this so basically only removal of the building would do it. I'll keep this in mind when I eventually move into really working over the defensive structures systems down the road.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Where is the Promotions Thread?

We have a Major problem.

The "Shamrock" promotion creates Invincible units Especially GGs. Is it designed to give 1 extra life or Infinite lives? Either way it's breaking my game and will eventually break other games too.

You just can't kill a unit with it. I had an AI GG reduced to less than 3 str 4 times and it would come back to full str after what should've been the final attack. But NO right back to str 10 with Promos. I lost 12 seasoned and promoted frontline units on that single GG before I quit trying. Then I lost 3 heavily promoted assassins to a Swordsman that had the Shamrock Promo.

Please do something about this very OP promo, please!

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

Double posting, thats not like you Joe?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Whatever promotion give Extra lives has broken the game. And I wanted to make sure somebody saw it. It's a game breaker. I thought it was the Shamrock symbol promo but that's supposed to be the Green Warden. The Respawn promo gives extra live, only it doesn't go away after it's used like it's supposed to. It just keeps on respawning the unit that has it.

So if I get a unit that can Respawn I can take out any stack I want or take any city I want. So far the AI is not aware of this. But it's units that have it are indestructible.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

Whatever promotion give Extra lives has broken the game. And I wanted to make sure somebody saw it. It's a game breaker. I thought it was the Shamrock symbol promo but that's supposed to be the Green Warden. The Respawn promo gives extra live, only it doesn't go away after it's used like it's supposed to. It just keeps on respawning the unit that has it.

So if I get a unit that can Respawn I can take out any stack I want or take any city I want. So far the AI is not aware of this. But it's units that have it are indestructible.

JosEPh

That should ONLY he a Hero that gets it?? And once he's dead (2nd time) its gone! Do you have a savedgame so i can look at it, thx.
Its supposed to be more or less a re-prive, BECAUSE he is a HERO, they are stronger and more durable.
Just like i just saw on TV (Weird or what) that a girl jumped out of a plane and the parachute didn't open and the second one got twisted, and SHE lived after the FALL!!

 

[JosEPh_II]

It was on a GG and a swordsman. And as I've outlined in the Bug post I used up enough of my units to kill it 4 times and it re-spawned 4 times before I gave up.

The swordsman re-spawned twice.

I'll look to see if I have a save in the autosave folder.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

It was on a GG and a swordsman. And as I've outlined in the Bug post I used up enough of my units to kill it 4 times and it re-spawned 4 times before I gave up.

The swordsman re-spawned twice.

I'll look to see if I have a save in the autosave folder.

JosEPh

I guess we need to find out why this is happening, sorry, it should NOT, it is assigned a UNITCOMBAT-Hero only?? Unless i got that wrong also

Spoiler :

			<UnitCombats>
				<UnitCombat>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HERO</UnitCombatType>
					<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
				</UnitCombat>
			</UnitCombats>

 

[Thunderbrd]

Isn't the 'bug' as much about why its able to respawn endlessly like it was completely immortal?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I reloaded the save game the turn before, but this time it did not repeat itself. I could kill the Warlord with the GG attached. Nor could I find the Swordsman or my own lt. crossbow.

I did update to svn 5456 this morning before I posted just to make sure the obsidian problem was gone. Maybe that corrected it? The save was from SVN 5424 build, pre Obsidian.

Makes me look like I'm crying Wolf again.

So hold off on any changes till someone can verify what I experienced. Sorry, but if it would've reproduced it was a gamebreaker.

Maybe even Heroes should not have this Promo? It's very very powerful.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

I reloaded the save game the turn before, but this time it did not repeat itself. I could kill the Warlord with the GG attached. Nor could I find the Swordsman or my own lt. crossbow.
JosEPh

I think this is the problem, i have played now about 40 games and NEVER had the Promo yet I believe its very very selective and very seldom found, you just got the lucky end of the stick as they say, its probably like getting a GOOD starting location versus a BAD one, you never know??

 

[Koshling]

I reloaded the save game the turn before, but this time it did not repeat itself. I could kill the Warlord with the GG attached. Nor could I find the Swordsman or my own lt. crossbow.

I did update to svn 5456 this morning before I posted just to make sure the obsidian problem was gone. Maybe that corrected it? The save was from SVN 5424 build, pre Obsidian.

Makes me look like I'm crying Wolf again.

So hold off on any changes till someone can verify what I experienced. Sorry, but if it would've reproduced it was a gamebreaker.

Maybe even Heroes should not have this Promo? It's very very powerful.

JosEPh

It's supposed to only be a small chance of cheating death isn't it? It's definitely a problem if it happens multiple times in a row.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Where is the Promotions Thread?

Here you go ...

C2C - Promotions
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=458193

Not sure why you could not find it. I just used the search button and put in "Promotions" and it came up.

 

[ls612]

I reloaded the save game the turn before, but this time it did not repeat itself. I could kill the Warlord with the GG attached. Nor could I find the Swordsman or my own lt. crossbow.

I did update to svn 5456 this morning before I posted just to make sure the obsidian problem was gone. Maybe that corrected it? The save was from SVN 5424 build, pre Obsidian.

Makes me look like I'm crying Wolf again.

So hold off on any changes till someone can verify what I experienced. Sorry, but if it would've reproduced it was a gamebreaker.

Maybe even Heroes should not have this Promo? It's very very powerful.

JosEPh

It would IMO be better as a disposable thing. IE, it will trigger and resurrect the unit, but then it will go away and the unit can be killed normally. That would require some python though to do.