ls612's C2C Units

[Thunderbrd]

According to the proposition, Sword lines should then become slightly generically stronger than equivalent axe/spear/mace units plus some anti-archery. This makes them good in a city attack too but adds to the imperative to make some melee work well for city defense. They wouldn't fare too well vs axes in the city either. They'd be very good at making sure stacks aren't easily attacked by archer units in the field and would be potentially capable of matching the anti-melee aspects of the crossbow, making for at least a fair fight there.

 

[Hydromancerx]

In the past it has been ...

Polearms = Anti-Mounted
Axe/Mace = Anti-Melee
Swordmen = Anti-City
Archer = City Defense
Crossbow = Anti-Melee

Since then we have added more types of Units such as ...

Thief = Stealthy Units
Hunter= Anti-Animals
Dogs = Anti-Thief
Skirmishers = Half Polearm / Half Archer

And now the Macemen. Perhaps we should just make it strictly Half Axeman / Half Swordsman in that its good vs melee and city attack but not as good as a Swordsman or Axeman could do.

And then just remove the bonus vs. Recon and Hunter.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Ok some more unit tweaking ...

Clubman
Upgrades To: Spiked Clubman (not Stone Maceman)

Spiked Clubman
Upgrades To: Stone Maceman OR Stone Axeman

Stone Maceman
Special Abilities

• +25% vs Melee
• +5% City Attack

Maceman
Special Abilities

• +25% vs Melee
• +5% City Attack

Flailman
Special Abilities

• +25% vs Melee
• +5% City Attack

This should fix the Macemen line so they have a weaker City Attack than the Swordsman line of +10% City Attack.

Also please make a "Force Obsolete" for the Clockwork Golem at
"Robotics" tech.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Polearms = Anti-Mounted
Axe/Mace = Anti-Melee
Swordmen = Anti-City
Archer = City Defense
Crossbow = Anti-Melee

Since then we have added more types of Units such as ...

Thief = Stealthy Units
Hunter= Anti-Animals
Dogs = Anti-Thief
Skirmishers = Half Polearm / Half Archer

So now we have the Macemen which are currently envisioned as being anti-Recon and anti-Hunter and a minor in city attack and anti-melee.

I'm suggesting the following:
Polearms (Melee) = Anti-Animal/Anti-Mounted
Axes (Melee) = Anti-Melee
Maces (Melee) = City Attack/Minor City Defense (urban combat)/Minor anti-melee
Swords (Melee) = Generically strongest melee/Minor City Attack/Minor Anti-Archery

Archers (Archery) = City Defense/Hill Defense/Forest Defense
Crossbows (Archery) = City Defense/Anti-Melee

Stealth Units = Stealth/Anti-Hunter/Anti-Recon/Anti-Healer
Hunter Unis = Anti-Animal
Trained Animals = Anti-Stealth/(eventually Anti-Withdraw) (the various kinds should have some terrain strength variations I think.)
Recon = weak but strong withdrawal
Skirmishers = We have a good fit for them now but I would also maybe think they should counter the archer's role of Hill and Forest Defense by being strong at Hill and Forest attacks.

We also have:
Riding Units = currently are just strong and mobile and good with withdrawal but I would also think they would excel in attacking (and to a lesser extent defending) on flatlands (particularly muddy) where they would have ultimate superiority but weak in forests and hills and although we do have some of that in play now, we could probably use some more emphasis on this.

I'm also suggesting Two Handed Sword wielders that have an anti-polearm role rather than an anti-archery role. We have some specialized polearm units that have anti-melee roles in addition to their anti-mounted roles which is appropriate for their use as in Phalanxes and such. Those were often countered by the Two-Handed Sword wielders.

I would love it if we could define Heavily Armored units among Mounted, Melee and even Archers and give them extra strength but have some units that counter that factor which would represent some weapons like the Bill and the aforementioned weapon earlier.

So if you come up against a city that's defended by melee and archery, both strong at defending the city, you'd want the swords for the archers and the maces for the maces, axes and law-enforcement. Unfortunately, you'd probably have trouble either way unless you brought plenty of proper collateral units (a desirable effect to represent effective city defenses).

I was just making a suggestion and we hadn't discussed it much before it was acted on it so before we go much further I'd like to hear your opinion on these suggestions. They are giving consideration to the nature of the weaponry and the way those weapons would influence the battle more than 'classic functions' although it is considering that as well. I figure the shields the sword units would carry would give them an edge against archers.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

I just had ls612 take out the anti-Recon and anti-Hunter bonus since it made more sense for the Macemen to be a hybrid of Sword and Axeman.

I disagree that the Swordsmen should have anti-archery. That's what the skirmishers are good for. They are minor anti-mounted, minor anti-animal and minor anti-archer.

As for why the skirmishers don't have hill defense is so the archery units have some sort of a advantage when on hills.

I always though that the Swordsman's City Attack bonus was because of their shields.

 

[Thunderbrd]

My only issue with making the maces a hybrid unit like that is that they would lag for purpose and as a result, I'm thinking I would never find cause to build them. Better to have them have a purpose, and perhaps if swords should be our primary city attack forces then it may be worth giving a melee unit with a major in city defense which the maces would be a good fit for. The town watch used to be that but I'm feeling more and more that their primary use is more for combating crime and should begin to be slanted against rogue types as well for that reason. (not to see them but bonuses to fight them.)

If you feel that the shields were what gives the swords their strength in city attack, that would make it all the more rational to make the mace line all the more a melee city defense line as chain weapons were primarily designed to counter the use of shields. I would counter that the reason the shields gave them strength in city attacks was because archers were the primary form of city defense.

I wasn't suggesting skirmishers should have hill defense, but should have hill and forest attack. Still, if they are our primary anti-archery units then it should balance out in effect as they are. I've been finding them a bit of an odd duck in play but if they are just flat good at the three you mentioned, I can see a purpose in them as being a strong companion for an axe in a raiding party. They'd be really good at taking down those pesky crossbowmen for sure.

And look... keep in mind that I'm really just voicing my thoughts. I don't want to come across as if I feel every opinion I have needs to be adopted. In all of this I clearly defer to you as the authority in this area. Please just consider the points I'm making as you make final decisions.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Its an interesting ideas to give the macemen some city defense and law enforcement good vs Thieves. However thieves don't have their own unit category so all thief units would have to be listed.

I need to think these over for a bit before make more change requests. Thanks for the ideas. You are always good at brainstorming with me. I do appreciate them.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Please chnage the Heavy Cavalry's TECH_ALCHEMY requirement to TECH_INVENTION. Thanks!

 

[ls612]

@Hydro: OK, a few things.

1. I think that the unit upgrade lines should diverge at Clubman. Making the Spiked Clubber, at Str 3, upgrade to the Stone Maceman, also Str 3, seems kinda odd to me. I think that that specifically should remain as is.

2. 5% City Attack is kinda measly, I think I'll bump it to 10%, and change the Sword line of units to +20% City Attack. We can test that and see how that balances out.

3. I chose Modern Warfare as the Clock Golem obsolete because of the accurate Artillery units that come around then. I read on another thread a suggestion on making the Clock Golem upgrade to a Mech Unit, maybe that's what I'll do, and delete the forceobsolete.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

1. The Stone Maceman while still Strength 3 is slightly better in that its gets a bonus to city attack too.

2. If you are bumping the Swords line then we need to bump up all the Sword Wielding culture units too.

3. I like the Mech upgrade idea. The question is which mech?

4. Please make this chnage too. I forgot to include the Spearman line into the Clubman upgrade path.

Spiked Clubman
Upgrades To: Stone Maceman OR Stone Axeman OR Stone Spearman

5. Here are the Culture Units that would need their City Attack moved from to 20% if you are altering the main linage ...

- Jaguar Warrior = 20%
- Praetorian = 20%
- Maccabees = 20%
- Koa = 20%
- Dob Dob = 20%
- Lightning Warrior = 20%
- Xifos = 20%
- Berserker =20%
- Rajput = 20%
- Loki Fist = 20%
- Ra Fist = 30%

Also the Kallarani and Urmi Swordsman should have 25% City Attack not 25% City Strength.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Can you please chnage the following units ...

Bandit Rider
Upgrades To: Highwayman

Highwayman
Upgrades To: Outlaw

Outlaw
Upgrades To: Mobster Car
Gold Per Turn: +5

Mobster Car
Notes: Change the name from "Deluxe Mobster Car" to just "Mobster Car".
Gold Per Turn: +5

Privateer
Upgrades To: Torpedo Boat

I would also like to have the Bandit Rider Line and the Pirate Ship line merge at a Pirate Spaceship. Something like this ...

Bandit Rider -> Highwayman -> Outlaw -> Mobster Car -> Pirate Spaceship

Dragon Ship Pirate -> Barbary Corsair -> Privateer -> Torpedo Boat -> Uboat -> Assault Ship -> Pirate Spaceship

However I have no idea what the stats or model should be for those since we have not gotten to all the space techs. Also I am wondering if we should have like a Pirate Dropship and then a Pirate Spaceship.

 

[ls612]

@Hydro:

1. I think we need two Pirate vessels for the Transhuman Era. The first should be some sort of post-modern pirate boat, one that is still on water. Then, the land and sea Crime lines could merge into a Pirate Hovership, which would act like a helicopter. It may also be able to go between the Earth, Mars, and Moon maps.

2. The land and sea pirates should not upgrade to space pirates IMO, I think that all Galactic Map units should be their own unit line. That way we can continue the planetary upgrade chains into the Galactic Era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Its an interesting ideas to give the macemen some city defense and law enforcement good vs Thieves. However thieves don't have their own unit category so all thief units would have to be listed.

I need to think these over for a bit before make more change requests. Thanks for the ideas. You are always good at brainstorming with me. I do appreciate them.

This adds to an earlier assertion I had made at some point that rogues need their own combat class. They certainly have their own ai considerations and seem to fall into a whole line of their own that should have their own promotions as well as promos that counter them.

I also think we need to create a Law Enforcement combat class for all the same reasons, especially due to the fact that these units really need to have a consistent promotion options... driving me nuts that their options in this regard change with every upgrade.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

1. Ok, a Hovership is what I was thinking of too. Which also reminds me that I want to fit in hovercrafts (the real kind) somewhere since we have the models for them.

2. Hmm. What late land pirate unit do you think we should have?

Here are some other stuff I need changed ...

Machine Gun
Upgrade To: Light Anti-Air Gun OR SAM Infantry
Notes: I feel this is a better fit to upgrade to rather than waiting for the Mechanized Infantry.

Vietcong
Upgrade To: Light Anti-Air Gun OR SAM Infantry
Notes: Its a Culture Unit of the Machine Gun so it needs to be changed too.

Light Anti-Air Gun
Strength: 35
Notes: It needs to be stronger if the Machine Gun upgrades to it.

Trench Infantry
Upgrades To: Infantry
Notes: It should not upgrade to the SAM Infantry since it comes so much later.

Modern Infantry
Upgrades To: Mechanized Infantry OR SAM Infantry
Notes: This is a more appropriate unit to upgrade into a SAM Infantry than Trench Infantry.

Thanks in Advance!

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

There are some mech, high tech and robot units that I think wold fit well at the end of different upgrade chains Here are some of my ideas.

Scout Mech
This obviously would belong on the Scout line. Right now we have ...

Wanderer -> Scout -> Explorer -> Adventurer -> Motorcycle -> Jeep -> Humvee -> ACV

Thus I think we could stick it after the ACV (Armored Combat Vehicle).

Power Armored Infantry
This seems like it should be at the end of the Infantry line. Such as right after Mechanized Infantry.

Musketman -> Rifleman -> Trench Infantry -> Infantry -> Modern Infantry -> Mechanized Infantry -> Power Armored Infantry

There is also the issue of the new Motorized Infantry. I am not sure if it should be between somewhere or over with the Wheeled units we have a lot of different wheeled units from the Scouts to the Armored Vehicles.

For instance we have ...

Calvary -> Armored Car -> BTR8000 -> Mechanized Infantry -> High-Tech APC

Calvary -> Armored Car -> Humvee -> ACV

Also the Motorized Infantry seems to be more like an Infantry than a Wheeled Unit. Something should upgrade into it. Also I think it should upgrade into the Mechanized Infantry Rather than to Special Infantry and Tesla Infantry.

Assault Mech
I am thinking that the Power Armored Infantry could upgrade into the Assault Mech.

Anti-Personnel Mech
I am not sure where to put this. Possibly a different upgrade for the Power Armored Infantry. Thus making a fork upgrade path.

Walker Mech
I think this should be under the Assault Mechs Unit Category and not High Tech category. I also have no idea where it should fit in.

Also many oif these mechs have like gold cost of +1 to +5 (except for the Assult mech which is +100 !) I think they should cost a lot more if other units in earlier eras cost +5 gold.

*Phew* Ok I should wait for you to respond before I continue.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Ok to another linage I have been saving up to do. Chariots and War Wagons. I would like to have them go like this ...

Chariot -> War Wagon -> Siege Wagon -> Armored Car

Note that I changed them from 100% vs Axeman to general Melee. Since getting run over by a Chariot or War Wagon is still going to hurt.

-----

Chariot
Graphic: N/A
Icon: N/A
Type: Mounted
Strength: 4
Movement: 2
Cost: 30
Req Tech: Charioty
Req Building: Chariot Workshop
Req Resource: Horse
Upgrades To: War Wagon

Special Abilities

• Immune to First Chance Strikes
• Doesn't Receive Defense Bonuses
• Can Withdraw from Combat (25% Chance)
• -50% Jungle Attack
• -25% Forest Attack
• +100% vs Melee

Notes: The War Chariot and Hittite Chariot culture units would need to get 100% vs Melee too Instead of Axeman.

-----

War Wagon
Graphic: ?
Icon: ?
Type: Mounted
Strength: 8
Movement: 2
Cost: 120
Req Tech: Siege Warfare
Req Building: Siege Workshop
Req Resource: Horse AND Iron
Upgrades To: Siege Wagon

Special Abilities

• Immune to First Chance Strikes
• Doesn't Receive Defense Bonuses
• Can Withdraw from Combat (25% Chance)
• -50% Jungle Attack
• -25% Forest Attack
• +100% vs Melee

-----

Siege Wagon
Graphic: ?
Icon: ?
Type: Mounted
Strength: 16
Movement: 2
Cost: 240
Req Tech: Metallurgy
Req Building: Cannon Forge
Req Resource: Horse AND Sulphur
Upgrades To: Armored Car

Special Abilities

• Immune to First Chance Strikes
• Doesn't Receive Defense Bonuses
• Can Withdraw from Combat (25% Chance)
• -50% Jungle Attack
• -25% Forest Attack
• +100% vs Melee

-----

The biggest problem is finding graphics. I put the requests out but so far nothing.

 

[Vokarya]

@ls612

Also the Motorized Infantry seems to be more like an Infantry than a Wheeled Unit. Something should upgrade into it. Also I think it should upgrade into the Mechanized Infantry Rather than to Special Infantry and Tesla Infantry.

The Motorized Infantry is supposed to upgrade to Special Infantry/Tesla Infantry so that you can still build it while you have Mechanized Infantry. As I said, I don't like not having a City-Garrison-capable unit between Modern Infantry and Special Infantry, so that's what I was creating Motorized Infantry for. Motorized Infantry is not a Wheeled unit, it's a Gunpowder unit. They don't fight from their trucks. I want it to keep at least one of the Special Infantry/Tesla Infantry upgrade paths, so that it's still buildable until one or the other appears.

I added the upgrade path from Highwayman to Outlaw. I also kept the Highwayman to Cavalry path to match Bandit Rider being able to upgrade to Cuirassier.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The Motorized Infantry is supposed to upgrade to Special Infantry/Tesla Infantry so that you can still build it while you have Mechanized Infantry. As I said, I don't like not having a City-Garrison-capable unit between Modern Infantry and Special Infantry, so that's what I was creating Motorized Infantry for. Motorized Infantry is not a Wheeled unit, it's a Gunpowder unit. They don't fight from their trucks. I want it to keep at least one of the Special Infantry/Tesla Infantry upgrade paths, so that it's still buildable until one or the other appears.

What about we give Mechanized Infantry some city defense stuff? Tough I have always though that its weird that we go from Infantry Units to Mechanized Infantry back to Infantry Units.

I added the upgrade path from Highwayman to Outlaw. I also kept the Highwayman to Cavalry path to match Bandit Rider being able to upgrade to Cuirassier.

Actually I wanted to take out the upgrade ability for that linage to only upgrade to those units such as no more Bandit Rider to Cuirassier and no more Mobster Car to Humvee.

 

[Vokarya]

What about we give Mechanized Infantry some city defense stuff? Tough I have always though that its weird that we go from Infantry Units to Mechanized Infantry back to Infantry Units.

If we open up City Garrison to Tracked units, that would be fine. Motorized Infantry could still play a role as a unit between Modern and Mechanized, since Modern Infantry is available at Manufacturing + Automatic Weapons, Motorized is available at Manufacturing + Mechanized Warfare, and Mechanized is all the way at Robotics.

Actually I wanted to take out the upgrade ability for that linage to only upgrade to those units such as no more Bandit Rider to Cuirassier and no more Mobster Car to Humvee.

The upgrade path doesn't bother me. I like to think of it as the units turning "legit" or them being bribed into your regular forces.

 

[strategyonly]

Here is a Camo Mech with animations i had made up a year or so ago, if your intereted: