I'm not certain which ones yet, or what I'll use for the Railgun Tank, but I'm working on it.
ls612's C2C Units
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
I'm not certain which ones yet, or what I'll use for the Railgun Tank, but I'm working on it.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
What happened to the 50% vs Archery for a unit, now the only one close is at 25%, heck you'll never beat the Archers this way
EDIT: What happened to the 200% Defense it had, so it not worth to upgrade then???
EDIT: What happened to the 200% Defense it had, so it not worth to upgrade then???
What happened to the 50% vs Archery for a unit, now the only one close is at 25%, heck you'll never beat the Archers this way
Skirmished type units (Atl-Atls) get that now.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Did TW Ever have 200% City Defense? Wasn't that the original Tribal Guardian that had that?
JosEPh
JosEPh
Yes, the Tribal Guardian has 200% City Defense. It upgrades to the TW, so that 200% shouldn't carry over.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Yes, the Tribal Guardian has 200% City Defense. It upgrades to the TW, so that 200% shouldn't carry over.
I have tried to upgrade it but it never lets you.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I just end up deleting the TG after awhile. If it would upgrade to a TW that would be good.
JosEPh
JosEPh
I'm going to begin my rundown of what I would like to do to rebalance units after Thunderbrd's changes hit the SVN. This may be slightly confusing if you haven't been sent the changes, but in time it will make sense. Thunderbrd and Hydro are the two people I'm primarily seeking comment from.
Infantry (pre Gunpowder)
Axeman Line:
So Axemen will hit hard and die fast, which is the feeling I want them to evoke
Spearman Line:
I would like to reduce the combat strength of spearmen so that they will be balanced with the armor and pierce bonuses. Their Cav bonus can stay, but Spear units will be mostly the opposite of Axemen, slow and tough bricks.
Javelin/Skirmisher Line:
Javelins currently counter Archers, which I think is a mistake. Archers have far longer range in most cases, and they should be what counters Javelineers. Jav units will be fragile but deadly against heavily armored units, and can get away quickly from danger. Bring Cav to counter them.
Archer Line:
Still the city defense unit of choice, Archers can fortify and not be moved behind walls.
Macemen Line
Balanced units designed for hitting Cities, Macemen will be a good jack-of-all Trades. They will get murdered by Cav though (see below).
Cavalry (pre-Gunpowder)
Melee Cavalry:
Everything needed to destroy melee units (except Spearmen, which get a bonus against cav) in one unit. Make sure to guard them, as the still won't get defensive bonuses.
Ranged Cav:
Ranged Cavalry will be best used en masse and in a surounding position. With large bonuses to SAD mechanics, lots of First Strikes, and Withdrawal chances they will be very dangerous in an open area. Don't get them caught in hills or forests though, as they are fragile and will keep their penalties in those terrains.
Elephants:
Yes, and this includes Bison, Bears, Mammoths, and other larger megafauna. Zebras and Girraffes and Deer go with either Ranged or Melee Cav though. These will wreck you if you aren't prepared, but can and will go berserk in combat, so don't use them against Archers or Javelineers.
That's good for now, I'll go into Industrial/Modern land units tomorrow.
Infantry (pre Gunpowder)
- High Armor (except for Ranged Units)
- Bonus vs Non-Animal Barbarians (except for Melee Units)
Axeman Line:
- High Pierce
- Low Armor
- Unyielding
So Axemen will hit hard and die fast, which is the feeling I want them to evoke
Spearman Line:
- High Armor
- Lower Strength
- Repel
- High Pierce
- Dig In
I would like to reduce the combat strength of spearmen so that they will be balanced with the armor and pierce bonuses. Their Cav bonus can stay, but Spear units will be mostly the opposite of Axemen, slow and tough bricks.
Javelin/Skirmisher Line:
- Very High Puncture
- High Early Withdrawal
- Bonus vs Elephants
- Bonus vs other Megafauna (bears, Bison, Mammoths, girrafes)
Javelins currently counter Archers, which I think is a mistake. Archers have far longer range in most cases, and they should be what counters Javelineers. Jav units will be fragile but deadly against heavily armored units, and can get away quickly from danger. Bring Cav to counter them.
Archer Line:
- Bonus to City Defense
- Dig In
- Bonus vs Elephants
- Bonus vs other Megafauna (bears, Bison, Mammoths, girrafes)
Still the city defense unit of choice, Archers can fortify and not be moved behind walls.
Macemen Line
- High Puncture
- Medium Armor
- Bonus to City Attack
Balanced units designed for hitting Cities, Macemen will be a good jack-of-all Trades. They will get murdered by Cav though (see below).
Cavalry (pre-Gunpowder)
Melee Cavalry:
- Knockback
- Early Withdraw
- Bonus vs Ranged units (archers and javelineers)
- Pursuit
Everything needed to destroy melee units (except Spearmen, which get a bonus against cav) in one unit. Make sure to guard them, as the still won't get defensive bonuses.
Ranged Cav:
- High Early Withdrawal
- Pursuit
- High First Strikes
- SAD bonuses (don't remember what they are called)
Ranged Cavalry will be best used en masse and in a surounding position. With large bonuses to SAD mechanics, lots of First Strikes, and Withdrawal chances they will be very dangerous in an open area. Don't get them caught in hills or forests though, as they are fragile and will keep their penalties in those terrains.
Elephants:
- Stampede
- Overrun
- Knockback
Yes, and this includes Bison, Bears, Mammoths, and other larger megafauna. Zebras and Girraffes and Deer go with either Ranged or Melee Cav though. These will wreck you if you aren't prepared, but can and will go berserk in combat, so don't use them against Archers or Javelineers.
That's good for now, I'll go into Industrial/Modern land units tomorrow.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@ls612
I have a few questions and comments ...
1. What do you mean by "Infantry"?
2 The Melee units are supose to be like this ...
Axemen = Strong vs Melee
Swordmen = Strong vs City Attack
Macemen = Moderate vs Melee and City Attack
2. Javelin/Skirmishers are there specifically to be anti-archer just like in Age of Empires II. They can also do Mounted and Animals since they are wielding especially "light spears", but the Polearms (Spears/Pikes) are the primary anti-Mounted (with a small anti-animal too). And the reason they are archer is because that's how they were categorized in Age of Empire II.
3. Archers of course would be all about city defense and hill defense.
4. Like I said Macemen can do things that Axemen and Swordmen can but not nearly as well as either one. Thus a more generalized melee unit.
5. Well cavalry have a few groups ...
- Chariots/War Wagons
- Light Horses
- Heavy Horses
- Camels
- Elephants
- Exotics (Zebra, Giraffe, Bison, Bear, Deer, Mammoths)
Note that some groups overlap such as Zebra can be a Chariot, Knight, Archer, Calvary, etc.
Speciflc animal traits are ...
- Horse = Good on Flat Terrain
- Camel = Good in Arid Terrain
- Llama = Good On Mountainous Terrain
- Elephant = Good in Jungle/Forest Terrain
- Mammoth = Good in Polar Terrain
- Giraffe = Good in Savanna
- Zebra = Good in Savanna
- Bison = Nothing specific but it would be good if it was made good on Plains/Grassland
- Bear = Nothing specific but it would be good if it was good in Forest.
6. Also what does "SAD" stand for?
7. I think I might attempt to make some upgrades for the Bison and Bear riders since they stop at Knight.
I have a few questions and comments ...
1. What do you mean by "Infantry"?
2 The Melee units are supose to be like this ...
Axemen = Strong vs Melee
Swordmen = Strong vs City Attack
Macemen = Moderate vs Melee and City Attack
2. Javelin/Skirmishers are there specifically to be anti-archer just like in Age of Empires II. They can also do Mounted and Animals since they are wielding especially "light spears", but the Polearms (Spears/Pikes) are the primary anti-Mounted (with a small anti-animal too). And the reason they are archer is because that's how they were categorized in Age of Empire II.
3. Archers of course would be all about city defense and hill defense.
4. Like I said Macemen can do things that Axemen and Swordmen can but not nearly as well as either one. Thus a more generalized melee unit.
5. Well cavalry have a few groups ...
- Chariots/War Wagons
- Light Horses
- Heavy Horses
- Camels
- Elephants
- Exotics (Zebra, Giraffe, Bison, Bear, Deer, Mammoths)
Note that some groups overlap such as Zebra can be a Chariot, Knight, Archer, Calvary, etc.
Speciflc animal traits are ...
- Horse = Good on Flat Terrain
- Camel = Good in Arid Terrain
- Llama = Good On Mountainous Terrain
- Elephant = Good in Jungle/Forest Terrain
- Mammoth = Good in Polar Terrain
- Giraffe = Good in Savanna
- Zebra = Good in Savanna
- Bison = Nothing specific but it would be good if it was made good on Plains/Grassland
- Bear = Nothing specific but it would be good if it was good in Forest.
6. Also what does "SAD" stand for?
7. I think I might attempt to make some upgrades for the Bison and Bear riders since they stop at Knight.
1. People not riding things (foot soldiers)
2. I'm more working off of a Medieval II unit balance, which is more historical, jav units in the ancient and classical eras were deadly to elephants. Jav units should NOT counter archers, as they are more lightly armored AND have shorter range.
2a. The Melee units will still have more or less that function, just these extras added on. Axemen will still kill melee units, they will just be more offensive and less durable.
3. Cool.
4. Also good.
5. I think that camels can just get a desert bonus and more skirmishing, ie they are missile cav with humps. The Exotic animals either fall into the Elephant types (huge beasts that rampage through the battlefield with little control) or the Cavalry Types (more like Horses, not so much rampage but more controllable.). That makes things simpler for balancing purposes, they can still have unique quirks, this is a general outline.
6. Surround and Destroy.
7. Sure, but we'd need to find graphics for that.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@ls612
Here is are stats for the Bear Rider and Bear Knight ...
-----
Bear Rider
Graphic: (See Attainment)
Icon: ?
Upgrades To: Bear Knight
Notes: Add +50% Forest Attack.
-----
Bear Knight [National Unit - 15 Allowed]
Graphic: Use the graphic currently used for the Bear Rider.
Icon: Use the icon currently used for the Bear Rider.
Type: Mounted
Strength: 12
Movement: 1
Cost: 100
Req Tech: Megafauna Domestication AND Armored Clavary
Req Resource: Iron
Req Building: Bear Trainer
Upgrades To: Autogyro OR Armored Car
Special Abilities
-----
Thanks!
Here is are stats for the Bear Rider and Bear Knight ...
-----
Bear Rider
Graphic: (See Attainment)
Icon: ?
Upgrades To: Bear Knight
Notes: Add +50% Forest Attack.
-----
Bear Knight [National Unit - 15 Allowed]
Graphic: Use the graphic currently used for the Bear Rider.
Icon: Use the icon currently used for the Bear Rider.
Type: Mounted
Strength: 12
Movement: 1
Cost: 100
Req Tech: Megafauna Domestication AND Armored Clavary
Req Resource: Iron
Req Building: Bear Trainer
Upgrades To: Autogyro OR Armored Car
Special Abilities
- This Unit is Tradable
- Immune to First Strikes
- Doesn't Receive Defensive Bonuses
- Can Withdraw Form Combat (20% Chance)
- +50% Forest Attack
- +50% vs Catapult
- +50% vs Trebuchet
- Flank Attack vs Catapult, Trebuchet
-----
Thanks!
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
1. Ok.
2. Yeah but they were filling the niche of an anti-archer archer.
Archer/Longbow = City Defender
Crossbow = Anti-Melee
Javelin/Skirmisher = Anti-Archer (and Mounted to a lesser extent)
Please leave the Javelin/Skirmishers as the Anti-Archer Archers. Note we can always make them weaker or even extra weak to melee units if we need to balance them.
5. Camels cover all the major areas like horses.
- Camel Rider
- Camel Knight
- Camel Archer
- Camel Gunner
However they are good in desert but are weaker in strength than their horse counterparts.
6. Ah, that makes sense.
7. See in the post above for the new Bear Knight and Bear Rider Tweaks.
which is a bad niche, as they can also get City Raider from the start, meaning that they are enormously OP city attack units (see shenryyr's vid for an example). The anti-archer unit should be Cav, or Melee in general, so long as they attack (then the archer doesn't get first strikes).
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Well Like I said before we can always make it weaker either through its strength or through weaknesses such as -50% vs Melee. The reason I wanted this line was for that specific niche. So even people without horses or metal could have some sort of anti-archer unit.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Info from AoEII ...
http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Skirmisher_(Age_of_Empires_II)
Skirmisher (Age of Empires II)
The Skirmisher is an anti-archer ranged Unit available in the Archery Range in the Feudal Age. Skirmishers are similar to the Slinger in Age of Empires.
Age: Feudal Age
Trained at: Archery Range
Type:Archer
Cost: 35 Wood, 25 Food
HP: 30
Attack: 2
Range: 4
Armor : 0
Pierce Armor: 3
Speed: Slow
Upgraded From: N/A
Upgraded To: Elite Skirmisher
Overview
This ranged Infantry unit is very weak to everything except Archer and Hand Cannoneers. With a weak and slow attack, as well as a minimum range, they have little effect on Infantry and Cavalry. However, their bonus against archers can make them valuable against an Archer using opponent, especially if the player's civilization's bonuses are to infantry or Heavy Cavalry.
Unless they are created to retaliate against enemy archers, skirmishers make poor ranged support. Thus, training skirmishers should be avoided unless opponents are going heavy on archer units.
http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Skirmisher_(Age_of_Empires_II)
Skirmisher (Age of Empires II)
The Skirmisher is an anti-archer ranged Unit available in the Archery Range in the Feudal Age. Skirmishers are similar to the Slinger in Age of Empires.
Age: Feudal Age
Trained at: Archery Range
Type:Archer
Cost: 35 Wood, 25 Food
HP: 30
Attack: 2
Range: 4
Armor : 0
Pierce Armor: 3
Speed: Slow
Upgraded From: N/A
Upgraded To: Elite Skirmisher
Overview
This ranged Infantry unit is very weak to everything except Archer and Hand Cannoneers. With a weak and slow attack, as well as a minimum range, they have little effect on Infantry and Cavalry. However, their bonus against archers can make them valuable against an Archer using opponent, especially if the player's civilization's bonuses are to infantry or Heavy Cavalry.
Unless they are created to retaliate against enemy archers, skirmishers make poor ranged support. Thus, training skirmishers should be avoided unless opponents are going heavy on archer units.
@Hydro: Leaving aside the reversal of historical tactics that represents, I think that the Javelineer is an OP city attack unit. Maybe it should have -50% City Attack, then it would be balanced, and Javelin units wouldn't be good at city attacks anyways.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I don't think they'd be bad at taking cities at all... but I do think some weakness to melee is in order and we should be developing a melee line that can help defend cities almost as well as archers.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@ls612
So it would be these then?
- Atl-Atl
- Javlineer
- Early Skrimisher
- Menalamba (Merinia Early Skrimisher)
- Kanambu Warrior (Kanam-Bornu Javlineer)
- Holkan (Mayan Atl-Atl) - Note that this has +25% vs Melee so maybe just have only the -25% City Attack
Oh and the Holkan and Kanambu Warrior should be an archery units, not a melee units.
I think I got all of those type of units. Let me know if I missed one.
So it would be these then?
- Atl-Atl
- Javlineer
- Early Skrimisher
- Menalamba (Merinia Early Skrimisher)
- Kanambu Warrior (Kanam-Bornu Javlineer)
- Holkan (Mayan Atl-Atl) - Note that this has +25% vs Melee so maybe just have only the -25% City Attack
Oh and the Holkan and Kanambu Warrior should be an archery units, not a melee units.
I think I got all of those type of units. Let me know if I missed one.
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