onedreamer
Dragon
Again: building infrastructure when you have no techs to do so doesn't sound so awesome to me. Do you guys actually use this tactic or just speak on the paper ? Because it really seems the biggest waste I've ever heard of.
Luchuirp worldspell
- Thread starter Milosrdenstvi
- Start date
Again: building infrastructure when you have no techs to do so doesn't sound so awesome to me. Do you guys actually use this tactic or just speak on the paper ? Because it really seems the biggest waste I've ever heard of.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
You are not understanding, and for a few reasons:
1) You should be researching Agriculture concurrently. Then, when your mud golem gets out, he builds farms, until you reach education, then he builds cottages (Some of them over the farms).
2) What other early builds are more valuable than a worker? A lot of civs will early build workers to get farms and cottages ASAP even when they DON'T GROW while building the worker. The mud golem is an obvious advantage over them. Warriors or scouts are generally going to either sit around defending against non existant attacks, or go off and get killed by animals.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
One last thought, you can use your second Great Engineer to build the Mines of Goldur. You can get iron rediculously early this way.
onedreamer
Dragon
1) it's entirely dependent on the map start. If you have 1-2 flatland tiles having an early mud golem is useless.
2) I can produce mud golems fast enough to build improvements, just like with any other civ.
Compared to having a hunter stack with +1 attack strength having a farm a few turns early still seems a waste. Btw, from the description of the spell, I understood you get a Great Engeneer, not a free engeneer. If it's the second, then it's definitely better than I thought, and a nice alternative to the hammers as weapons (not much for the production but for the GPP).
2) I can produce mud golems fast enough to build improvements, just like with any other civ.
Compared to having a hunter stack with +1 attack strength having a farm a few turns early still seems a waste. Btw, from the description of the spell, I understood you get a Great Engeneer, not a free engeneer. If it's the second, then it's definitely better than I thought, and a nice alternative to the hammers as weapons (not much for the production but for the GPP).
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
You get a normal engineer, and he does in fact generate GPP points.
And actually, yes, the farms earlier is a pretty big help. Consider this:
2 Farms will had +4 food (With agriculture on grasslands or floodplains).
Engineer adds +2 Production
Great enginer (Turn 25) adds +3 production
When you build a settler, you'll have +9 production to do so, of which 4 of that is from just a pair of farms. I'll often have 3 or 4 farms, making this a potential of +13. However, you say that you can build that Mud Golem in only slightly less time. I think the actual time discrepency is pretty big. MG's cost 100 hammers. Even with that first Engineer specialist, it generally takes me 20 to 30 turns to build the first golem. At that point I've produced via the engineer 50 (Average of 20-30 *2) production, half of what was needed. You build farms in 5 turns(FloodPlain, 4 on grassland or plains), and I'm guessing most starts will have you taking another 15 turns to finish that golem, at which point the original golem will be finished farming, and your city will have grown to size 6 faster because of it. You'll also have a pair of warriors, and will have started on your first settler, reaping all the listed benefits.
Since growth in this game is exponential (Or a coefficient off from it) getting an early absolute boost is pretty big.
And actually, yes, the farms earlier is a pretty big help. Consider this:
2 Farms will had +4 food (With agriculture on grasslands or floodplains).
Engineer adds +2 Production
Great enginer (Turn 25) adds +3 production
When you build a settler, you'll have +9 production to do so, of which 4 of that is from just a pair of farms. I'll often have 3 or 4 farms, making this a potential of +13. However, you say that you can build that Mud Golem in only slightly less time. I think the actual time discrepency is pretty big. MG's cost 100 hammers. Even with that first Engineer specialist, it generally takes me 20 to 30 turns to build the first golem. At that point I've produced via the engineer 50 (Average of 20-30 *2) production, half of what was needed. You build farms in 5 turns(FloodPlain, 4 on grassland or plains), and I'm guessing most starts will have you taking another 15 turns to finish that golem, at which point the original golem will be finished farming, and your city will have grown to size 6 faster because of it. You'll also have a pair of warriors, and will have started on your first settler, reaping all the listed benefits.
Since growth in this game is exponential (Or a coefficient off from it) getting an early absolute boost is pretty big.
the overall best use i have found for that first great engineer you pop off the hammer is for the great lighthouse.
as for a way to fix the power of this spell ....
change the hammer to no longer adding a specialist , instead ave it add a toolmaker ..
a toolmaker is a building that adds all the bonuses of a specialist engineer , but without the great people points
as for a way to fix the power of this spell ....
change the hammer to no longer adding a specialist , instead ave it add a toolmaker ..
a toolmaker is a building that adds all the bonuses of a specialist engineer , but without the great people points
xienwolf
Deity
Or just create a new specialist type which is just like the Engineer, but lacking GPP.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
Not talking about building Mud Golems with food, but rather building food with Mud Golems, as it were
.onedreamer
Dragon
so it works like scientists from the Great Library ?
On Mud Golems: you don't need to build them too early like I said, because they will just sit doing nothing most of the games. If you go with Mysticism / God King instead of Agriculture, you will see that it won't take you too long to build Mud Golems. The added production from food is only from excess food, so if you start in forests you will have roughly the same production rate, except that Mud Golems cost more than workers I think, but work faster and can defend.
Yes, and the Bards from the Grand Menagerie.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
Mud Golems cost 100 prod vs 75 from normal workers. Also, MG's don't stop your city from growing while you build them.
If you go AC then Mysticism.. yeah your MG's won't have anything to do, except make wineries if you get lucky.
I generally look around for a bit of land to irrigate before I make my first city, so that my turn 20ish MG has something to do.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
Theater of Dreams, I think you mean.
The Grand Menagerie gives a free Bard. The Theater of Dreams just allows you to hire Bards.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
Yeah, I totally was thinking Great Library in that it gives +1 Science, and Theater in that it gives +1 Culture (to appropriate specialists). You are correct though, in that it gives a free specialist. My bad.
DuckAndCower
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 215
The problem I see is that it's been pretty clearly shown that, by far, the best use of this worldspell is as soon as your first city is built. There's no interesting decision-making going into it now.
What if it was just the Hammer settled in your capital that didn't give GPP? I'd hate to nerf the things across the board when it's really just that Turn 1 capital hammer that's causing the problems.
What if it was just the Hammer settled in your capital that didn't give GPP? I'd hate to nerf the things across the board when it's really just that Turn 1 capital hammer that's causing the problems.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
If all you did was require masonry, you'd balance it pretty majorly. 30 turns into the game, that +2 production doesn't have nearly the effect it would otherwise have.
