Mac Civ 4: How bad is it? "Seeking refund" may be the next step.

[AlanH]

My highly speculative guess is that the parts of the software that fail on a case sensitive system are in the code that Aspyr inherited from Firaxis, rather than the parts that Aspyr created themselves.

Windows seems to be less picky about these things generally. I've found mods with XML that contains high-value ascii characters that break the Mac version but presumably work OK in Windows.

 

[ancestral]

My highly speculative guess is that the parts of the software that fail on a case sensitive system are in the code that Aspyr inherited from Firaxis, rather than the parts that Aspyr created themselves.

Windows seems to be less picky about these things generally. I've found mods with XML that contains high-value ascii characters that break the Mac version but presumably work OK in Windows.

It's my understanding the issue is less about handling case-sensitive strings in general and more to do with the actual file system. But again, I'm no expert on the subject.

 

[AlanH]

Sure.

I was only using the XML file example as a (obviously bad) illustration of the generally less exacting demands of Windows, leading to code that fails when ported to the Mac OS

 

[bjorkmann]

As a software developer with over 6 years professional experience, I can safely say that this is a joke!

A game that doesn't work on a case-sensitive file-system? Give me a break! This is a bug pure and simple. How dare the authors of this game say claim it as anything else. Just because you didn't test for it doesn't make it a bug. You might as well declare that anyone who doesn't have the exact same system configuration as your development machines is just wasting your time and that you don't want their money.

It would be like writing a game for Windows that works on FAT32 but not NTFS and then claiming that everybody should use only FAT32. That is preposterous and it is just a cover for lazy programming. If Apple provides the option, then it is standard and should therefore be supported.

In a small market like the Mac games one, I would expect developers to be trying to squeeze every ounce of revenue from the people who will buy their games, not locking them out through bugs and then justifying the stance with absurd reasons. It is the height of professional arrogance to blame the customer for this development mistake.

Unfortunately I've had to return my copy as well and have bought the PC version. I will also just play it using BootCamp.

The thing that annoys me most is that this issue is not documented on the product packaging or website. Any other company would list something like this in their release notes and then make a statement about fixing it.

 

[Beamup]

This is a bug pure and simple.

Only if you have a very, very, very, strange definition of a bug. It is working as designed, and you object to the design. That's your prerogative, but you simply cannot make any case whatsoever for calling it a bug.

If Apple provides the option, then it is standard and should therefore be supported.

Apple also provides the option to partition your hard drive. But Boot Camp won't be installable if you do. That's just one example. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's standard.

It is the height of professional arrogance to blame the customer for this development mistake.

Funny, I would have said it's the height of professional arrogance to complain about design decisions when you have no knowledge of the underlying issues.

The thing that annoys me most is that this issue is not documented on the product packaging or website. Any other company would list something like this in their release notes and then make a statement about fixing it.

For the <<1% of people who would actually care, at the cost of hugely confusing the 99% of people who would have no clue what they're talking about? I'll agree it should be available information, but not that it should be prominent. It should be something you have to look for, in order to avoid confusing the vast majority of the people who read it.

 

[stuabear]

Well I have had Civ III and at first I thought that Civ IV was so different I hated it, but after playing CIV IV on my macs for the past couple of months I love it, it really is an amazing update and game.
I did have one problem inititally and that was the game kept locking up. Especially on my new MacBook Pro(DualCoreIntel(Tiger10.4.7)) which is hooked up to one of those 30" monitors. Once I got to the options menu and reduced the rendering quality all my problems disappeared. I have also played Civ IV and Civ III on an Older G4 17"Powerbook, on 2 different G5 duals a G4 dual 800 anda G4 dual 1.25 with no problems at all. NOt all of them on 30" monitors
As for the issue of Macs being case sensitive they have been that way for a long time, at the user level, if you want it that way, this is even further enhanced in the latest OS called Tiger. Again thisis your choice, the OS behind it all isastandard release of Unix andIdoubt there are too many users who wouldeven know if their base OS was running case sensitive or not Ithink that bjorkmann has got this one dead to rights. So far I have had no wierd issues and most of my Macs are totally stuffed with software System enhancements audio/Video 3D Modelling (Maya) Etc so they are all loaded to the gilss and if anything is going to mess a game up it is usually too many add ons or specialized setups and none of these seem to have affected Civ IV or III. It really is a great game and if you really do want to play it, I am sure you can get it so your system will run it, as long as it fulfills the game's basic requirements.Nownot liking how a newversion ofa game works,doesnot mean it isa big,especially if it works differently from a previous version/
I truly went from hating this one to loving it now.(So much stuff had changed from CIV III> About the only thing in the Latest OSVersionsthat hascausedmeissueswith things Flash and it felows and some othe apps has been having filevault turned on. It too Macromedia hours to try and figure out why I could not access a required startup file and they never did get me an answer. I simply turned off Filevault to see what happened, because everything seemed to work as desired when I created a test user account. Going through that gave me the Filevault clue I hate switching users just to use a recalcitrant piece of software. The software had better be amazing before I will even consider that approach or at least be something Icannot live without. (Usually the occasional piece of OS 9 software and now with the Intel Macs, OS 9 is finally a thing of the past.
Stu

 

[Gatekeeper]

If the return on investment doesn't match or exceed the resources put into the initial effort, then the effort isn't worth pursuing. That's probably what the issue is with this case sensitive/insensitive debate.

IOW, if it costs Aspyr $100 to implement it, and they get $25 back on it, they probably won't do it. Heck, would *you* spend $100 knowing you'd only get $25 back on the deal?

FWIW, until now I hadn't known Mac OS X was capable of case-sensitive operations. Probably because I'm not that overly familiar with its Unix core.

Gatekeeper

 

[5150]

What do Apple's programming guidelines say on the issue, if anything? That's a better standard to expect than whether something is an available option.

 

[AlanH]

Apple's prgramming guidelines are not read by Firaxis when they are developing a game. That's why i contend that it's very likely that the problem areas are in Firaxis code and not in Aspyr's porting stuff. You can argue that Aspyr should fix all Firaxis' calls in this area, but that just adds to their cost and delay with no significant added sales to compensate. It also makes tracking Firaxis' subsequent patches and add-ons more difficult as they've modded more Firaxis code.

 

[5150]

Alan, you're always defending Aspyr when you really don't need to.

It's reasonable to expect that Apple's guidelines are followed or that exceptions are noted where people can find them before purchase. That would prevent any of these problems.

Remember back in the early days when Apple's guidelines with regards to self-modifying code weren't followed? Many of my favorite games back then died because of that.

 

[AlanH]

Alan, you're always defending Aspyr when you really don't need to.

Not really, I'm just trying to point out the economic and commercial realities of the situation they are likely to be in. I've been in the retail software publishing arena, and know some of the "rock/hard place" choices that have to be made from time to time.

It's reasonable to expect that Apple's guidelines are followed or that exceptions are noted

Civ4 breaks Apple guidelines in a hundred different places. It wasn't designed by a Mac-savvy developer. Aspyr would have to produce a list as big as the box to disclaim all the violations, or rewrite the entire product.

 

[bjorkmann]

Only if you have a very, very, very, strange definition of a bug. It is working as designed, and you object to the design. That's your prerogative, but you simply cannot make any case whatsoever for calling it a bug.

Nobody design a piece of software with incompatibility issues as part of the design. Aspyr didn't sit at the table and on their list of features have "123: Make sure game only runs on case-insensitive filesystems". They just didn't do it, and the reason they didn't do it is that they never thought of it or that they decided it wasn't worth it. Whatever their reasoning, it IS a bug.

Apple also provides the option to partition your hard drive. But Boot Camp won't be installable if you do. That's just one example. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's standard.

BootCamp is beta software, and it is free. It also has to go in at a very low level and mess with the partition tables. Probably makes sense not to mess with that stuff since the negative consequence is destroying someone's data. I expect less of them on this one.

Funny, I would have said it's the height of professional arrogance to complain about design decisions when you have no knowledge of the underlying issues.

Now that IS possibly true. But I know from personal experience how hard it is to make software that works on different filesystems, and the answer is "it's not". It is dead easy. You just do it from the start.

 

[AlanH]

You just do it from the start.

That's just it .... Aspyr weren't there "at the start".

 

[Beamup]

Nobody design a piece of software with incompatibility issues as part of the design. Aspyr didn't sit at the table and on their list of features have "123: Make sure game only runs on case-insensitive filesystems". They just didn't do it, and the reason they didn't do it is that they never thought of it or that they decided it wasn't worth it. Whatever their reasoning, it IS a bug.

False. The design choice was that it might or might not work, whichever ended up happening. By any reasonable definition, it would ONLY be a bug if they had intended for it to work on case-sensitive filesystems and it did not. There was no such intention. The design explicitly and deliberately did not include that feature. Therefore its absence cannot credibly be termed a bug. It is a design decision.

BootCamp is beta software, and it is free. It also has to go in at a very low level and mess with the partition tables. Probably makes sense not to mess with that stuff since the negative consequence is destroying someone's data. I expect less of them on this one.

So apparently this definition of "standard and should be supported" is quite elastic. Not that that makes it wrong, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.

Now that IS possibly true. But I know from personal experience how hard it is to make software that works on different filesystems, and the answer is "it's not". It is dead easy. You just do it from the start.

Which Firaxis didn't. Meaning that's not something you can credibly blame Aspyr for at all.

 

[bjorkmann]

False. The design choice was that it might or might not work, whichever ended up happening. By any reasonable definition, it would ONLY be a bug if they had intended for it to work on case-sensitive filesystems and it did not. There was no such intention. The design explicitly and deliberately did not include that feature. Therefore its absence cannot credibly be termed a bug. It is a design decision.

Okay, we can argue about the definition of a bug all day, but my position is that anything that prevents me from playing this game on my Macbook Pro (be it a bug or a design decision) is an exceptionally bad call and if it were done in the Windows market, this problem would be a) embarrassing for the developer and b) fixed quickly.

Blizzard used to have this problem with StarCraft. They no longer have it with any of their games in this platform (and they have never complained about it being too hard).

So apparently this definition of "standard and should be supported" is quite elastic. Not that that makes it wrong, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.

No, the definition of beta is that the software isn't ready for primetime, so I'm more forgiving.
Furthermore BootCamp does what it advertises AND it says in the documentation that it doesn't work unless you only have one partition. BootCamp is also free. I didn't have to pay for it, so again, I'm more forgiving.
Civ 4 doesn't say that you have to have a case-insensitive file system so I can't work within the constraints. There isn't even anything in the readmes that says this is the case, so when it doesn't work I have to sit there messing around with Python and everything else, trying to figure out what's wrong. A google search turns up almost nothing, a search on the Aspyr site turns up even less. I found this thread through some random search whose criteria I don't even remember.

If I'd bought this game and I was an idiot, I would be lost. As it happens I had to argue with some idiot at the game store until I got my money back. You can't buy that sort of negative PR Aspyr. Well done.

Which Firaxis didn't. Meaning that's not something you can credibly blame Aspyr for at all.

Firaxis didn't need to. They develop games for Windows which only works on a case insensitive file system.
Aspyr do need to. They are a Mac developer. This is supposed to be the Mac port. Not the only-case-insensitive-Mac port.
Aspyr are held to a different standard because they INTENDED to develop a game for the Mac. Not for Windows.
Also, it isn't as though a company that ports a game doesn't have access to the source. That is HOW they port the game. Just because Firaxis don't fix something, doesn't mean that Aspyr can't. It isn't a dificult thing to do, it just takes a little bit of will to do it.

 

[5150]

Civ4 breaks Apple guidelines in a hundred different places. It wasn't designed by a Mac-savvy developer. Aspyr would have to produce a list as big as the box to disclaim all the violations, or rewrite the entire product.

And I suppose you'll tell me how expensive it would be to document that on the online system requirements?

 

[bjorkmann]

And I suppose you'll tell me how expensive it would be to document that on the online system requirements?

EXACTLY!

That's what irritates me the most. The complete lack of any documentation.

If, as Glenda says...

I think we can close the book on this topic. We have no plans to add case sensitive file system support to Civ 4 or any other Aspyr game.

and as Brad says...

Although I wouldn't phrase it exactly like this, it is definitely a standing support rule at Aspyr that none of our games are supported on case-sensitive file systems.

then it is clear that there is no intention to fix, or support, anything of this sort.

So HOW ABOUT DOCUMENTING IT!? Put it on your website so that I know. Under Support it should say "we don't support our games on case-sensitive file systems". Then I won't have to waste my time buying your software and I won't have to get annoyed about it!

 

[Beamup]

Okay, we can argue about the definition of a bug all day, but my position is that anything that prevents me from playing this game on my Macbook Pro (be it a bug or a design decision) is an exceptionally bad call and if it were done in the Windows market, this problem would be a) embarrassing for the developer and b) fixed quickly.

The first part I won't argue with. The second, given how much unbelievably shoddy software is out there for Windows, I don't think is accurate.

Firaxis didn't need to. ... Aspyr do need to.

Your claim was that making it work on a case-sensitive system was easy if it was done from the beginning. It was not done from the beginning because the beginning was at Firaxis. And fixing something like that IS a difficult thing to do. Very.

 

[bjorkmann]

The first part I won't argue with. The second, given how much unbelievably shoddy software is out there for Windows, I don't think is accurate.

Everything on Windows is shoddy until it's been patched til kingdom come. But they DO patch it.

Your claim was that making it work on a case-sensitive system was easy if it was done from the beginning.

True. But I didn't say it was stupendously hard if you did it later. It's harder, in that it's more tedious, but still not something I'd classify as hard.

It was not done from the beginning because the beginning was at Firaxis. And fixing something like that IS a difficult thing to do. Very.

I feel like I'm 9 years old saying this (is, is not, IS, IS NOT), but... It IS NOT a difficult thing to do. Very not. It just takes time.

Now if they're not going to fix it, that's fine. They've said as much and that's clearly their position. They've done their port of Civ 4 and they're probably off to port something else. Good. I've got my copy for Windows now and it works flawlessly so all is right with the world. And when the next game they port comes out, I'll buy it for Windows too. Perhaps after I have this exact same problem. We'll have to wait and see.

I can't really blame Aspyr. Firaxis probably did make it without any thought in their mind regarding this, and if they're like most game developers, their code is almost certainly a completely laughable mess. I do not envy anyone trying to understand it and make sensible changes to it for Mac compatibility. Since Aspyr probably only do work on the display, sound and input anyway, I can see why they wouldn't want to go looking at the file I/O, and I can also see why they have a silent policy on this. They just take what they're given and don't worry about whether any of it works properly except the bits they care about. That's their imperative, and the market they're in is small, so they'll do the fastest and easiest thing they can and move on.

But if this is their policy (and it's been stated twice here by people who work for them), then Aspyr should publish it on their website, and preferably have a line on their boxed system requirements too. It is simply polite to the consumer. Not that my opinion on this subject actually matters to them. I'm just a tiny little angry blip on their all important marketing radar.

 

[Beamup]

I feel like I'm 9 years old saying this (is, is not, IS, IS NOT), but... It IS NOT a difficult thing to do. Very not. It just takes time.

Thereby making it difficult to do when under major time pressure, as is always the case when you have to get the software out in order to pay the bills.

Not to mention the fact that it can easily take a HUGE amount of time to track down everything that needs changing. This is not some small project here.