Macedonia - A Naming Issue (split off from Altered Maps XVI)

[Takhisis]

I mean based on the bit of reading I've done on this subject that appears to be the gist of it and I'm like but why tho?

Read Wikipedia's overview on the issue, but I'll throw in some extra data.

Greece's side: Because of irredentism. Everybody claims Macedonia (the region) for themselves: Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, and the homegrown Macedonian government. To people from the U.S. it's completely ridiculous because the US has existed for not even 250 years yet, but to these people a couple centuries is just yesterday and a war that happened a hundred years ago is only this morning or perhaps yesterday.
Here's also a few more recent factors that complicate things:

• the Greek Civil War that followed WWII between Communists backed by Bulgaria and Yugoslavia on one side and the restored monarchy backed by the Western Allies on the other. Tens of thousands were exiled to Belgrade and beyond (I recommend reading Z by Vassilis Vassilikós and watching this film by Maria Douza);
• the expulsion of the Greeks from Alexandria in the 1950s;
• the expulsion of the Greeks from Constantinople in the 1950s (I recommend watching Πολίτικη Κουζίνα, I don't know the name in English);
• the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974 to establish (the occupation is still ongoing) the unrecognised republic of North Cyprus.

And they all weigh heavily on the national conscience. People who suffered through all that are still alive. Greek national identity is fraught with loss: the West (and Russia) repeatedly promised help and either withdrew it or just turned against the Greeks outright.
That would include, obviously, the Fourth Crusade and the subsequent partitioning of the Empire, but also the limitedness of response to the various atrocities committed during the 1820s (on both sides), which is still barely yesterday, or Britain taking advantage of the Ottoman defeat at Shipka to ‘liberate’ Cyprus by making it a colony and then making it an independent country, and the ongoing situation with the Greeks in Northern Epirus who gained their independence from the Turks in 1913 but got lumped in with the Albanians and are still there.

Which basically results in many Greeks being downright paranoid. Both Serbia and Bulgaria have owned parts of present-day Greek Macedonia, and (Northern/the Former Yugoslav Republic of) Macedonia somewhat laid a claim to all the region of Macedonia in its original constitution.

(Northern/the Former Yugoslav Republic of) Macedonia
Meanwhile, the (Northern/Former Yugoslav Republic of, i.e. Slavic) Macedonians need a name to highlight that they are not Western Bulgarians or South Serbs but a different entity and polity whatsoever; their territory corresponds to ancient Pæonia rather than Macedonia but it does correspond to mediæval (Serb-owned) Macedonia to some extent. The present-day capital of Macedonia, Skop(l)je, used to be the capital of the mediæval Serbian monarchy and, once again, the 1300s are just around the corner (see Milošević's speech at Gazimestan in 1989 for the 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo which was the prelude to the Yugoslav Wars, and take into account the fact that Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assasinated by a Serb in Sarajevo precisely when Austro-Hungarian authorities were provocatively organising public events also on the anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo).
So thus the Republic protects itself from irredentist Serbian and Bulgarian ambitions.


To an outsider it might seem like an incomprehensible tangle of reasons and impossible to relate to, but to them it makes perfect sense.

If it makes even an inkling of sense I can post more, but this is quite a long read already.

Think of it, don't you still have people in the US who think the US should have conquered Mexico and/or Canada or that the CSA had every right to secede or a number of other things that foreigners cannot understand or relate to either.

I also have no doubt that Russia is probably very interested on helping fan the fires of nationalism there, as they seem to be in cahoots with Steve Bannon (they support Orbán, Marine Le Pen, nationalism for nationalism's sake, hate the EU and NATO), but that's a different thing.

 

[sophie]

Well, I guess you can cross off most of the great classics of 18th and 19th Century literature and academic writings of the English language (or most other heady tomes from that era in their official English translations), except for Scripture and any but the most high-minded, upper-class, preparatory educational children's books of your reading list if the presence of a single sentence of longer than then the norm of 21st Century English so disturbs you and makes the written text utterly unreadable.

Depends, are you being paid by the word?

 

[Patine]

Depends, are you being paid by the word?

No one's paying me to write or type a damned thing - at least yet...

 

[metatron]

I'm getting so jealous of the Balkan countries.
They must have a booming economy, full employment, excellent public services and infrastructure and not a single real problem that other countries have.
If only the rest of Europe was doing so well that we could all WASTE OUR TIME ON THIS STUPID NONSENSE !!!


Edit: Quick google search revealed to me the existence of a city named Cologne in Minnesota. That's not Cologne !
I will now start writing angry letters to German politicians and newspapers, demanding that they start a rivalry with Minnesota and deal with stagnant wages and the housing crisis later.

Jesus Christ. It's the name of the historic region Macedonia exists in. Obviously, Germany needs to change its name, since that name is the name of a region that once comprised parts of other states, including entire states like Austria and Czechia. And the Belgian state of Luxembourg is in permanent danger of the irredentist dreams of the Grand Duchy to the south. And Georgia could invade the US any day now.

Let me add to your point:

"Told them all about us, our team, what we've been doing, and, uh, yesterday we got a response.
From Oklahoma City University."
"Aren't they?"
"Anglo-Saxon? Yes. Yes."
"We'll be the first Negro college in America, well, one of the first Negro colleges in America,
to ever debate a white college."
"All right!"
"University of Oklahoma!"
"Not University of Oklahoma. Oklahoma City University.
The debate will take place at an off-campus site."
"Wait. An off-campus site? Why?"
"Because sometimes, Mr. Lowe, you have to take things one step at a time."
"So what you're saying is the crackers in Oklahoma ain't gonna let us on their campus."
"No, what l'm saying is you have to take things one step at a time."
"This is a great opportunity."
"Thank you very much."
"Master is going to give us a crumb off his plate, huh?
[pause]
What?"
"l think Lowe here is afraid."
"What am l afraid of, James?"
"l think you're afraid to debate white people."
"Anglo-Saxons."
"Anglo-Saxons."
"Thank you very much."
"Mr. Tolson, let me debate. l mean, l'll debate Anglo-Saxons anywhere:
In a dark alley, with no light, with a candle lit and people chasing you down with guns.
Hell, l'll debate Anglo-Saxons anywhere. l ain't afraid."
​

Somehow i get the feeling i should be very concerned.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Greece got islands off Turkey in 1947 ?
To us it seems another silly balkans problem again, Greece has no problem claiming that certain territories are "part" of the Greek country then if said part claims to of greek heritage and culture it should be allowed to
As for calling the entire country Macedonia, I going to chalk this up to the Greeks being the Greeks.

 

[HoloDoc]

Well, I guess you can cross off most of the great classics of 18th and 19th Century literature and academic writings of the English language (or most other heady tomes from that era in their official English translations), except for Scripture and any but the most high-minded, upper-class, preparatory educational children's books of your reading list if the presence of a single sentence of longer than then the norm of 21st Century English so disturbs you and makes the written text utterly unreadable.

Lol. I'm a science fiction author. What you wrote was ridiculously excessive. A sentence that long is far beyond the acceptable limits of the English language. It's theoretically possible, but so is the sentence; "Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo."

And I'm very widely read. Kind of a necessity when you're a librarian and author. But by all means, be the intellectual badass of the worldwide web, bro.

A 120-word sentence is still excessive, even by the standards of Maryatt, Dickens, Doyle and Twain.

Exactly. Any editor would reject a sentence like that, at any point in the last two hundred years. Unless it was a Stephen King novel, because his editors gave up decades ago.

Let me add to your point:

"Told them all about us, our team, what we've been doing, and, uh, yesterday we got a response.
From Oklahoma City University."
"Aren't they?"
"Anglo-Saxon? Yes. Yes."
"We'll be the first Negro college in America, well, one of the first Negro colleges in America,
to ever debate a white college."
"All right!"
"University of Oklahoma!"
"Not University of Oklahoma. Oklahoma City University.
The debate will take place at an off-campus site."
"Wait. An off-campus site? Why?"
"Because sometimes, Mr. Lowe, you have to take things one step at a time."
"So what you're saying is the crackers in Oklahoma ain't gonna let us on their campus."
"No, what l'm saying is you have to take things one step at a time."
"This is a great opportunity."
"Thank you very much."
"Master is going to give us a crumb off his plate, huh?
[pause]
What?"
"l think Lowe here is afraid."
"What am l afraid of, James?"
"l think you're afraid to debate white people."
"Anglo-Saxons."
"Anglo-Saxons."
"Thank you very much."
"Mr. Tolson, let me debate. l mean, l'll debate Anglo-Saxons anywhere:
In a dark alley, with no light, with a candle lit and people chasing you down with guns.
Hell, l'll debate Anglo-Saxons anywhere. l ain't afraid."
​

Somehow i get the feeling i should be very concerned.

Macedonians are Negroes confirmed.

 

[Patine]

Lol. I'm a science fiction author. What you wrote was ridiculously excessive. A sentence that long is far beyond the acceptable limits of the English language. It's theoretically possible, but so is the sentence; "Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo."

And I'm very widely read. Kind of a necessity when you're a librarian and author. But by all means, be the intellectual badass of the worldwide web, bro.


Exactly. Any editor would reject a sentence like that, at any point in the last two hundred years. Unless it was a Stephen King novel, because his editors gave up decades ago.


Macedonians are Negroes confirmed.

The original (1963) English translation of the novel One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich has a notable sentence in it that literally goes on for 20-40 pages (depending on the book format). Even I - as they say in the Wuxa films - must bow to my masters - author Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and translator Ralph Parker - there.

 

[HoloDoc]

The original (1963) English translation of the novel One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich has a notable sentence in it that literally goes on for 20-40 pages (depending on the book format). Even I - as they say in the Wuxa films - must bow to my masters - author Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and translator Ralph Parker - there.

Then that is a terrible sentence. Never read the book. But translations are always difficult, in any case.

 

[Patine]

Then that is a terrible sentence. Never read the book. But translations are always difficult, in any case.

Well, at least we don't still write in Ancient Form Latin or Greek, where there was no capitalization/lowercase separation or punctuation at all (those were innovations of Medieval monks), and thus all sentences were determined by context and intimation alone.

 

[HoloDoc]

Well, at least we don't still write in Ancient Form Latin or Greek, where there was no capitalization/lowercase separation or punctuation at all (those were innovations of Medieval monks), and thus all sentences were determined by context and intimation alone.

I'm aware of that. Making writing easier to understand increases literacy. It's a good thing.

 

[Patine]

Wait. What.
*sigh*
No. It's a simple analogy.

Here, i actually made a graph for you:

Spoiler :

[table=head]Analogy|Case 1|Case 2
The term|Macedonian|Saxon
The actual thing|Greek Macedonia|the original Saxony
Where the term is applied once "hijacked"|Macedonian Macedonia|"white" Oklahoma, similar places, those parts of England, that fash state that stole our name[/table]

As you can see Denzel was a mere observer; neither he nor other African Americans are part of the analogy.
The point is maybe we should put barbed wire on the dike, before the people with the Maga hats come to reclaim their "homeland".

Which, i suppose, leads us to:
The Macedonians have no aircraft carriers and there's like 1.5 million of them. Maybe the 11 million Greeks with their historical virginity nationalism could chill.

The more i think about Greek nationalism the more i feel it is similar to the nationalism of a certain other country, but that's neither here nor there.

Only ONE other country's nationalism comes to mind here?

 

[Hrothbern]

Greece got islands off Turkey in 1947 ?
To us it seems another silly balkans problem again, Greece has no problem claiming that certain territories are "part" of the Greek country then if said part claims to of greek heritage and culture it should be allowed to
As for calling the entire country Macedonia, I going to chalk this up to the Greeks being the Greeks.

Those islands Greece got in 1947 were taken away from Italy who occupied Greece during the first years of WW2.
Italy on her turn had taken away the islands from Turkey during WW1.
And Turkey, the Ottomans, had conquered the islands around 1500 in the wake of their conquering of the Byzantine empire.

 

[metatron]

Those islands Greece got in 1947 were taken away from Italy who occupied Greece during the first years of WW2.
Italy on her turn had taken away the islands from Turkey during WW1.
And Turkey, the Ottomans, had conquered the islands around 1500 in the wake of their conquering of the Byzantine empire.

Well, not exactly.

@FriendlyFire
Those islands, the Dodecanese (there's more than twelve, but i suppose at some point people figured that 12 of them, like, mattered), were part of the Ottoman Empire.
Italy and the Ottomans had themselves a war in 1911 or something (before the First Balkan War in any event*).
This is essentially the war in which Italy conquered Libya. Italy also occupied the Dodecanese. Italy was supposed to keep them - essentially as a safety deposit - until all treaty obligations resulting from that war were met. So they should have been returned to the Ottomans. This however didn't happen because both parties had joined WW1 by that point and didn't bother upholding the treaty.
Actually the Allies had some scheme figured out for having Italy give the Dodecanese to Greece in exchange for other territory after the war, but like most middle eastern territory swapadeedoos concieved by the Allies this got botched.

I should have included this in my rant about the supposed goodguyness of a certain habitually nationalistic country: Fought hard for an Italian annexation zone in southern Anatolia, to trade for them islands.
A.k.a. "freedom and democracy".

*TL;DR:
The First Balkan War is the one where all manner of derpy Balkan countries gang up on the Ottomans (who had just lost to Italy), resulting in Greece seizing that bit on said map labeled "1913" and Bulgaria seizing the bit labeled "1920", which got then taken away from Bulgaria because they were in bed with the very evil barbarian dudes that the Good Guy Countries were fighting in that other war.
#Bulgaria cannot into Aegeis.
A.k.a. "freedom and democracy".

(Also: Serbia re-re-conquered Kosovo. But that's a whole other thing.)

 

[Hrothbern]

Actually the Allies had some scheme figured out for having Italy give the Dodecanese to Greece in exchange for other territory after the war, but like most middle eastern territory swapadeedoos concieved by the Allies this got botched.

You mean this part was not precise enough ?
Didn't know about it. But no surprise that when they were under British administration something like this happened to the benefit of their Greek friends.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

This nonsense is still going on...
It could all be so simple if Macedonia wasn't an independent country.
So many problems would be solved if they just made Yugoslavia again, but this time without jebeni Leninism or a Serbian Monarchy...

 

[Silurian]

Perhaps a much more ethnically and historically accurate name for the nation in question would be "Western Bulgaria." The current name is obviously a platform for irredentist claims with no actual historical backing. I know if Montana were one day renamed "Southern Canada," and Alaska to "Western Canada," I, living here in Canada, would be fully expecting it to be a setup to a justification to annex Canada wholesale and make it look good (except for the fact that I don't actually believe the U.S. government is that subtle or clever anymore, but still...).

Lets imagine the USA and Canada are defeated in a war and various empires control them and there are waves of settlers over the centuries.
Say in part of what was the USA the North American Republic was formed about 3820 after gaining independence from the Brazilian Empire.
The Brazilians are eventually pushed out of North America in 3913 with the North American Republic taking what used to be southern Canada and, Russia the north and Denmark taking New England. Russia calls its province in what used to be Canada, Canada in 3945. In 3968 the North American Republic decides to call its province in in what used to be Canada, Canada. The Russian empire breaks up and what used to be northern Canada starts calling itself The Republic of Canada which greatly upsets the North Americans.

The North Americans call The Republic of Canada the Former Russian Republic of Canada and state they have no connection with ancient Canada which was part of North American which they are the true heirs. The North Americans state that the so called Canadians are really Swedes who settled there about 3700 and Danes from Greenland (which is now green) so it should called West Greenland.

 

[HoloDoc]

Wait. What.
*sigh*
No. It's a simple analogy.

Here, i actually made a graph for you:

Spoiler :

[table=head]Analogy|Case 1|Case 2
The term|Macedonian|Saxon
The actual thing|Greek Macedonia|the original Saxony
Where the term is applied once "hijacked"|Macedonian Macedonia|"white" Oklahoma, similar places, those parts of England, that fash state that stole our name[/table]

As you can see Denzel was a mere observer; neither he nor other African Americans are part of the analogy.
The point is maybe we should put barbed wire on the dike, before the people with the Maga hats come to reclaim their "homeland".

Which, i suppose, leads us to:
The Macedonians have no aircraft carriers and there's like 1.5 million of them. Maybe the 11 million Greeks with their historical virginity nationalism could chill.

The more i think about Greek nationalism the more i feel it is similar to the nationalism of a certain other country, but that's neither here nor there.

Hang on, you took that seriously?

 

[HoloDoc]

No i took that as a witty chat-box-esque retort and not even hostile to me or my post.
It's just that the logic doesn't check out and i get triggered by such things.
Sorry.

I still say Macedonians are Negroes.

Funnily enough, I recall the Macedonian Gvt once saying that there were three types of people; Mongoloid, Negroid, and Macedonian. Not only did they use debunked racial science from fifty years ago, but they substituted their own ethnic group's name for Caucasian. That's positively Trumpesque.

 

[sophie]

Well, at least we don't still write in Ancient Form Latin or Greek, where there was no capitalization/lowercase separation or punctuation at all (those were innovations of Medieval monks), and thus all sentences were determined by context and intimation alone.

Just because they didn't have punctuation doesn't mean they didn't have clauses and sentences.

 

[Takhisis]

Greece got islands off Turkey in 1947 ?

As has been said, it was an Italian possession ‘liberated’ before WWI which Italy got to cling to and which they lost only after a) they were defeated by the Greeks on land and b) they actually ended up losing WWII.

Which, incidentally, is yet another example of Western betrayals against the Greeks.

This nonsense is still going on...
It could all be so simple if Macedonia wasn't an independent country.
So many problems would be solved if they just made Yugoslavia again, but this time without jebeni Leninism or a Serbian Monarchy...

I could swear you're a Dubioza Kolektiv fan from some of your posts.

Just because they didn't have punctuation doesn't mean they didn't have clauses and sentences.

You really should learn Finnish, Owen.