I really would like to think you don't actually believe this, for your sake. Though, I continue to find it hard to believe YOU have misread the game so ATROCIOUSLY. Considering it seems you directly worked/contributed to get ATPG killed, and have failed so many times since then, again, I'd really like to think you are corrupted, and actually have an iota of something behind what you're doing. Also, those who are cult-worshipping Winston fall into this boat; my impression, for instance, is that several of the elves themselves, possibly Renata, are at their own fault for getting a lot of info to sprig, at least as much as ATPG or anyone. And treating Winston as a "savior" since then has not gone anywhere. Anyway, about the last night then, it's surprising to the point of straining credulity that it appears Theoden was Ugluk. Especially given his other powers/abilities used in the game, I really would not have found that likely. So, the incredibly quick trigger-fingers on a real lack of evidence above notwithstanding; it's obvious that CAMIKAZE SPECIFICALLY WROTE THAT WRITEUP TO AVOID CONFIRMING WHETHER UGLUK WAS DEAD OR NOT. If this is not intentional at all I suggest he edit in "Saruman mourns the loss of Ugluk" or something but I suspect he won't, because it is intentional. It's also possible Isengard is being punished for Bad Player cheating by posting after he died (or of course that someone roleblocked them, but if someone did that I assume they would come forward). Considering if he truly was Mafia then Bad Player contributed to lynching Theoden and so on I'd congratulate Camikaze on a reasonable move if that's what up (again, not expecting to be confirmed for now for sure, but just in case Camikaze missed it before, nice and blue here as I guess we're supposed to do); my humor would have maybe had something like "Ugluk trips on a root and has to go crying home for a bandage" but this sounds like that could have happened too, though I'd say it's less likely than Isengard choosing not to kill. So the next sneaky possibly is that I of course have been worried that Isengard specifically took a night off from killing, and it seems they did, because even if Ugluk's really dead I highly doubt Saruman can't kill on his own. That makes no sense for game balance, that if at anytime during the game Ugluk was killed they'd simply be powerless after that. It would be great if we could have verified who Wormtongue is/was if dead but it appears we can't. But the update makes it clear some Isengard is dead, so at least if it not's Ugluk it's still Wormtongue and there's only two of them left, which is good. Anyway, if Theoden was clearly Innocent (Ugluk and Saruman attacked) I would have voted for Takhisis next; Takhisis still has not cleared his name with his full about-face accusations and contributing to killing Theoden too. But we'll perhaps have to spare him through one more Caturday if the list is just down to Takhisis, classical hero (and me) I'll be onboard with whomever we have the best evidence against - and that includes actually anyone else who it turns out we don't have proof of Innocence, say OST or CCRunner. Actually, with the slew of posts above, it's vote: Takhisis who does get my vote today. If everyone gets their votes in we'll even be spared another Caturday. And of course his flawed logic goes away too; well more like lies, in making up things that didn't happen, which he's done about several of my posts lately, perhaps finding me a convenient target. I think it's entirely clear why I'm definitely not Saruman; that shouldn't make a lick of sense to anyone who thought about it for half a second. Even more implausible than Theoden being Ugluk but if that's so I can live with it, we do have a chance of finding Saruman yet.