Mailbox's Economic Mod

[Tarquelne]

Using MustMaintain would mean as soon as you ditch the civic you will lose the promotion on all units.

Doh. I actually thought of that, was interrupted, and forgot about it by the time I'd returned to the computer.

What I realized was that it shouldn't be must maintain and you've have to let it get autoacquired each turn. If I followed the rest of your reply that'd work, yes?

AutoAcquire ... It is proving quite versatile thus far

I used it to shoe-horn some python that I want applied to upgrades as well as promoted units in onUnitPromotion (or whatever it's called.) With the units involved upgrading always triggers an AutoAquire, and so the OnUnitPromotion code looks at the unit.

 

[Tarquelne]

Yeah, I'm referring to it from an economic standpoint for now (this is an economy mod after all ).

Ok. I wondered if it was more a semantic issue than anything else. (Though I'll point out that money spent on army upkeep is itself often a more significant issue than (industrial) production bonuses/penalties - back atcha. )

I'm guessing I would need python for this?

I see xienwolf covered that - Sorry, I should have mentioned. AutoAcquire has proved extremely handy.

I'd rather tie the industrial and army mobilization together as it's simplier and usually civilizations mobilize at a rougher similar rate for industry and army.

...usually. Arguably WWII had to huge exceptions: You could say Germany had "Proffesional army" but "Unmobilized" in the economic sense, while Russia was the opposite. OTOH, you could argue it's better handled through other civic categories or ...

I'd probably use the training center/military academy to represent drilling, so that units could be raised elsewhere and then sent to that site to train.

... stuff like that. So not a big deal. Though I meant "drilling" in the sense that a unit maintains it's "edge." Civ currently does nothing to reflect that sort of thing. (Heck, you can have a unit camp on an isolated snowfield deep in enemy territory for centuries and it won't even *starve*, let alone lose its edge.)

 

[Mailbox]

Damnit, you made me have to review my own code


Using MustMaintain would mean as soon as you ditch the civic you will lose the promotion on all units. Using ExpireChance would mean there is a chance per turn to lose the promotion. The thing I had to look up was the order that these happen in


AutoAcquire does happen after ExpireChance, so if you set an AutoAcquire promotion with an Expiration chance, then the promotion will remain on the unit as long as the conditions are met (no chance of losing the promo), but once conditions are NOT met, they will maintain the promotion for the rest of that turn (minimum), then have a chance at the start of each turn to lose the promotion if conditions aren't met.


This of course makes autoacquire even better Having moved AutoAcquire and MustMaintain to be checked onMove caused us to lose the chance of having a nice "you are in a city" bonus which can still be used to protect the nearby improvements (keep the bonus when you move out of the city, but just for that one turn). I hadn't even thought about using ExpireChance=100 instead of MustMaintain. Doing that would perfectly allow you to keep a promotion for a little while after you stop meeting the conditions required.

And in cases like this where you are dealing with a Civic it is quite a bit cooler as you can place a 5% chance so that SOME of your units will keep the promotion long enough to switch back to the civic without them losing it (if you had to temporarily switch for some odd reason).


And for Mailbox: AutoAcquire is a new field setup I added to promotions which FF offers. It is proving quite versatile thus far

I don't think I'm quite ready to switch over to FF yet, but I'll definitely keep all this in mind.

Ok. I wondered if it was more a semantic issue than anything else. (Though I'll point out that money spent on army upkeep is itself often a more significant issue than (industrial) production bonuses/penalties - back atcha. )

Upkeep will probably be the main difference anyways, keeping a very prepared and elite army should be expensive.

...usually. Arguably WWII had to huge exceptions: You could say Germany had "Proffesional army" but "Unmobilized" in the economic sense, while Russia was the opposite. OTOH, you could argue it's better handled through other civic categories or ...

This is medieval era (approximately), so I'm just equate them for less clutter.

... stuff like that. So not a big deal. Though I meant "drilling" in the sense that a unit maintains it's "edge." Civ currently does nothing to reflect that sort of thing. (Heck, you can have a unit camp on an isolated snowfield deep in enemy territory for centuries and it won't even *starve*, let alone lose its edge.)

It might be interesting to add a cheap building that adds a nice bonus that wears off quickly but gives defenders a major edge.

 

[Wauthan]

I've taken your modmod for a spin Mailbox but I'm afraid that this is not my kind of game. True it was a pretty short test, just 100 turns, but the supercharged economy simply didn't feel very fun. Game got a lot quicker though.

Some initial opinions:
- The autoupgrading improvements feel overpowered. Personally I would prefer that the upgrades needed a worker building it, and only became available with techs. That would mean that the pace of the game slows down a fair bit, and gives the early expander less of an edge.

- Workers really need a tiered system of promotions. As it stands I simply chose the xp gain upgrades first and then boosted through worker speed.

- Since every sort of tile can be upgraded there's no such thing as a bad place for a city. This means that early expansion goes into overdrive. In the 100 turns I played I mostly built settlers, workers and warriors. I put priority on researching Writing, so I could focus the nonspecialist cities on research. I don't really have any suggestion here since this effect seems to be exactly what you're after. Speeds up the game, but also takes a lot of the challenge out of it.

- The civilization that gets the most solid boost seems to be the barbarians. Since they are usually banished to backwater locations, like islands, jungle or tundra, the early ability to improve commerce on just about any tile lets them climb the techtree a lot faster.

 

[Vehem]

And for Mailbox: AutoAcquire is a new field setup I added to promotions which FF offers. It is proving quite versatile thus far

Understatement of the year

 

[Mailbox]

I've taken your modmod for a spin Mailbox but I'm afraid that this is not my kind of game. True it was a pretty short test, just 100 turns, but the supercharged economy simply didn't feel very fun. Game got a lot quicker though.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet added a lot of the things that would provide a drain on the economy as of yet.

- The autoupgrading improvements feel overpowered. Personally I would prefer that the upgrades needed a worker building it, and only became available with techs. That would mean that the pace of the game slows down a fair bit, and gives the early expander less of an edge.

Which improvements do you feel are most overpowered? Which are weak, if any?

- Workers really need a tiered system of promotions. As it stands I simply chose the xp gain upgrades first and then boosted through worker speed.

My apologies, I ended up realizing the problem and fixed this bug last night. Unless it's still a problem, which would mean I need to look at the code some more.

- Since every sort of tile can be upgraded there's no such thing as a bad place for a city.

Not sure this is a bad thing.

This means that early expansion goes into overdrive. In the 100 turns I played I mostly built settlers, workers and warriors. I put priority on researching Writing, so I could focus the nonspecialist cities on research. I don't really have any suggestion here since this effect seems to be exactly what you're after. Speeds up the game, but also takes a lot of the challenge out of it.

Why does it take the challenge out of the game, the AI should have the same advantages as they seem to understand the additions well.

- The civilization that gets the most solid boost seems to be the barbarians. Since they are usually banished to backwater locations, like islands, jungle or tundra, the early ability to improve commerce on just about any tile lets them climb the techtree a lot faster.

The barbarians themselves cannot climb the tech tree so any boost you're seeing is from the general boost in research afforded by the new improvements.

I really want the MIMM part to become more balanced so all feedback is more than welcome, I received very little on the original MIMM.

 

[Caradoc]

I'm about 200 turns into a game and so far everything seems to be working right. The AIs are doing very well with the economics and are growing rapidly. However, as best I can tell, none of the Barbarians has built a worker, so they are struggling.

With Elven Workers building in Ancient Forests, I am getting some incredible production. I have a Gold Mine that is generating 2-3-8 and it will increase when it goes deep. I have Fishing Boats pulling up 7-1-4 thanks to my Lighthouse and the Altar to the Sea.

Thanks for the update and let's hope MIMM makes it way into other mods.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Thanks for the update and let's hope MIMM makes it way into other mods.

*looks around for Vehem*

 

[scutarii]

my MIMM mod game: svartalfar city was abe to build harbor but water wasn't ever near.

 

[Mailbox]

my MIMM mod game: svartalfar city was abe to build harbor but water wasn't ever near.

Can I see a screenshot, I think I might have introduced a really strange bug.

Edit: I just checked and it wasn't what I thought it was. I'm not able to reproduce this bug.

 

[scutarii]

Can I see a screenshot, I think I might have introduced a really strange bug.

Edit: I just checked and it wasn't what I thought it was. I'm not able to reproduce this bug.

But I CAN ( yeah, I'm mightier than you)

http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=illigalharborck8.png

 

[Mailbox]

I think I see what it is. Is that ice tile counted as ocean/coast instead of fresh water? I'd assume so since a river is emptying into it. Fantasy Realm does some weird things.

 

[Shakiko]

Of course you need a harbor for all those hidden submarines the svartalfar secretly developed

 

[Caradoc]

There definitely seems to be a problem with workers. As I mentioned before, the Barabarians do not seem to build Goblin Workers at all. And the Lanun Worker and Sea Worker cannot build the Pirate Cove.

 

[Mailbox]

There definitely seems to be a problem with workers. As I mentioned before, the Barabarians do not seem to build Goblin Workers at all. And the Lanun Worker and Sea Worker cannot build the Pirate Cove.

As for the barbarian issue, I just checked in a game and the problem is that the barbarians will not build workers when they have just one city. This isn't an issue I've introduced, I assume it's an AI block of some sort.

The Lanun Sea Worker should definitely be able to build Pirate Coves, I merely changed the Unitclass requirement for the spell. I played several games with the Lanun and it worked.

 

[Caradoc]

As for the barbarian issue, I just checked in a game and the problem is that the barbarians will not build workers when they have just one city. This isn't an issue I've introduced, I assume it's an AI block of some sort.

The Lanun Sea Worker should definitely be able to build Pirate Coves, I merely changed the Unitclass requirement for the spell. I played several games with the Lanun and it worked.

Sure enough, when two Barb cities are close enough to join territories, they do make workers. That had not occurred in my last game. I suppose this is so others will concentrate on Warriors.

And I had missed the change of Pirate Coves to coastal water plots. I was trying to build them on coastal land plots like before. Might be good to correct the Pedia entry on this so others won't get confused like me.

Thanks for setting me straight on this.

 

[Tarquelne]

Not sure this is a bad thing.

I like playing with scarce resources myself - so adding resources isn't something that appeals to me. For that reason I never checked out the first version. (I'm planning on looking at this one after I finish obsessively testing my FF changes.) If the changes to improvements bring a net boost to the economy that's something I might see as a disadvantage, too - I already often wish the game didn't tech-up as quickly as it does. Obviously that's again a matter of taste rather than balance, though.

 

[Mailbox]

Once I get my first wave of changes done, I'm going to work on the second wave: changing tech costs. I feel like too much time is spent on the early techs and by the time you get to the later techs they go by too quickly.

I'm probably going to decrease the cost of earlier techs by 25-50%, increase the cost of middle to later game techs 25-50%, and increase the last and most powerful techs by a great deal (100-150%). This should give the games less time in that dead zone early on and more time in the middle of the tree.

I'm always interested to see what kinds of ideas other people have though.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I definitely agree that the "dead-zone" in the early game is waaaayyy too long. and if you play with "end of winter" on, it gets even worse.

(talking about base FFH2, not your mod. and I guess it applies to BTS too btw. )

 

[scutarii]

here has been similar project, take a look: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=271184

by all accounts, this project there seems to be dead.