Mailbox's Economic Mod

[westamastaflash]

I definitely agree that the "dead-zone" in the early game is waaaayyy too long. and if you play with "end of winter" on, it gets even worse.

(talking about base FFH2, not your mod. and I guess it applies to BTS too btw. )

This is why I use the "full of resources" map script to give all civs the first set of techs (except fishing, mining, and hunting) due to the lightbulbing order for religion techs.

 

[Mailbox]

here has been similar project, take a look: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=271184

by all accounts, this project there seems to be dead.

That's a bit different from what I want to do. I want to merely tinker with the costs of technologies so that more time is spent in the "middle ages" and units don't obselete as quickly. I want the end game techs to be a real effort to research and keep civilizations from hoarding techs.

Tarquelne, you might be interested in something I'm adding to the project when I begin merging the Python together: Resource Depletion. I think it's very ahistorical that a civilization can continually mine/exploit the same spot for centuries without running out of that resource. The resource discovery mechanic serves to counter balance this, as one site may be important in the early game but the focus will shift away from it as new resources are found and old ones used up.

 

[Tarquelne]

Resource Depletion.

Cool! That's a feature I loved to hate in Civ3.

Will you have a depleted resource pop-up elsewhere? Unrealistic, but it added insult to injury, which I liked.

EDIT: Oh yeah - I think the tech-cost fiddling you describe is a good idea.

 

[Mailbox]

Cool! That's a feature I loved to hate in Civ3.

Will you have a depleted resource pop-up elsewhere? Unrealistic, but it added insult to injury, which I liked.

EDIT: Oh yeah - I think the tech-cost fiddling you describe is a good idea.

It is a bit "gamey" to have that resource pop up somewhere else but it might be an interesting idea to increase the chance of finding a resource after one is depleted (and vice versa).

Perhaps a system like this:

Take a tally of every resource in the world at the beginning of the game and store those numbers somewhere.

Then do two things on the global scale:

1) As new resources are found, increase the chance for another resource of the same type to degrade and disappear. This could be explained as one site becoming for prominent and the other site slowly loses its hold on the market.

2) When an old resource is depleted, the chance of finding a new version of that resource is boosted. Since the supply of ____ has decreased, workers and miners begin to search more intently for a new source.

Edit:

Forgot to mention why I've been slow with adding new features. My computer with Civ 4 is being worked on and I haven't installed Civ 4 on this computer. I might do that later though.

 

[Mailbox]

New Version! XML changes are almost done, I should start on the Python soon (if school allows).

Spoiler :

MEM Changes (Alpha):

- Max trade routes changed to 16

- Units can train in cities in order to gain promotions (Tactics Line)
- Training Center (National Wonder, limit 2)
- + 2 Great Commander GPP
- + 1 XP
- + 25% Defense
- Tactics
- + 15% per rank up to 4 (60% total)
- 10 turns to train 1, 15 for 2, 20 for 3, 25 for 4 (70 turns total)
- Can only be trained in the Training Center city

- Moved Chopping to Mining

- Added "University" National Wonder (Limit: 1)
- +50% Science
- +25% GPP rate (Global)
- + 1 scientist
- + 1 engineer
- Feudalism required

- Added "Port Royale" National Wonder (Limit: 1)
- + 2 trade routes
- + 50% trade route income
- + 50% foreign trade route income
- + 35% defense
- Astronomy and Currency required

- Added Customs House
- + 100% foreign trade route income
- Optics and Currency required

- Added "Erebusian Trade Company" World Wonder
- + 25% gold
- + 25% foreign trade route income
- + 1 coastal trade route in all cities
- + 2 free merchants
- Can build "Explorers"
- Requires Astronomy and Mercantilism

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

cool! I'll have to try this as soon as I have some free time keep up the good work

 

[Skitters]

MEM Changes (Alpha):

- Max trade routes changed to 16

- Units can train in cities in order to gain promotions (Tactics Line)
- Training Center (National Wonder, limit 2)
- + 2 Great Commander GPP
- + 1 XP
- + 25% Defense
- Tactics
- + 15% per rank up to 4 (60% total)
- 10 turns to train 1, 15 for 2, 20 for 3, 25 for 4 (70 turns total)
- Can only be trained in the Training Center city

This bit got me thinking, would it be feasible to have a 'Combat Doctrine' promotion? This would be earned through non-combat training, and would be nominally set at +10?% strength/level

So for example, a unit trains to CD4 but on combat there would be a chance that;

1) The training is better than expected so perhaps +15%/level (10% chance)
2) Training goes as expected +10%/level (50% chance) CD ranks
3) Training does not benefit as expected - no benefit, CD ranks lost (30% chance)
4) Training is horribly outdated - -10% strength (10% chance)

I guess this would another batch of promotions which the training converts to once combat has been seen? And perhaps further combat training could remove the negative effect.

 

[Mailbox]

This bit got me thinking, would it be feasible to have a 'Combat Doctrine' promotion? This would be earned through non-combat training, and would be nominally set at +10?% strength/level

So for example, a unit trains to CD4 but on combat there would be a chance that;

1) The training is better than expected so perhaps +15%/level (10% chance)
2) Training goes as expected +10%/level (50% chance) CD ranks
3) Training does not benefit as expected - no benefit, CD ranks lost (30% chance)
4) Training is horribly outdated - -10% strength (10% chance)

I guess this would another batch of promotions which the training converts to once combat has been seen? And perhaps further combat training could remove the negative effect.

I suppose that it is possible but I think that the effect would have to be applied after the initial combat (via python) and all the effects possible would need their own promotions. I can't say I'm a big fan of it however, a well drilled unit will almost always do better than a unpracticed unit (Drill was already taken though, perhaps I could do something with it though) and I hate punishing the user for spending the extra time making the troops better only to lose the advantage.

On the other hand, I've got a handful of things left to do it XML. Some should be relatively quick while the others will take more time.

- New Unit: Explorer
- New Building: Trade Outpost

Both of these are tied to the Erebusian Trade Company and inspired by Apepis's stuff and the BtS corporations.

- New Civics / Civic Categories

These are the Mobilization / Professionalism / Doctrine trees I've adding. If I get inclined, I might add a new button to the top bar and make them seperate from civics and different effects on change. But that's Python and I'll just add them as Civics for now to test the relative effects.

- Tech Cost Revamp

The tech cost revamp could take a while because I'll try to test it with the AI and via user feedback.

 

[scutarii]

I know this is alpha stage and everything can happen.

So it happened that when my worker reached to 6th level, I had a possibility to wane him( sidar)...And settlers can receive "workers traits" too...

 

[Mailbox]

I'll add the waning issue to my python fix things, that's a pretty serious problem that Xienwolf fixed pretty early on, I forgot to look through the python to see what I'd need to fix.

The settlers receiving worker traits is intended, that way they can get things like hardy so that if a player wants, they can wait until the settler is able to defend itself a little more (just in case an escort dies or something).

One other thing I need to do is allow worker unitcombats to get mobility, I meant to add that in on first sweep, thank for the reminder.

 

[xienwolf]

Main highlight of allowing the Settlers to gain the promotions for the original WorkerMod was the bonus Promotions from Traits. Mobility I from Expansive, and Hardy I from Defensive IIRC (needed Python to pull off the Hardy bonus since you don't want that promotion going to every unit that gets the normal free promotion of Defensive trait). It was also nifty as a bonus for those rare times that you happened to have a settler sitting around for a while (waiting on a new support team, or looking for a new spot when the AI beat you to your initial target and whatnot).


Mailbox: I know you aren't built for FF, but when/if you ever are, the Training idea would work well with <bStackEffect>, a promotion field which allows you to recieve a promotion repeatedly. Though it would be best with a ramping cost tied to it. I think I might add such a thing to my worklist, as I might find a good use for it myself

You also might need to block workers from rescuing Brigit. Not sure if you allow them to gain enough XP to hit level 15 under a charismatic leader. Though if I remember right Kael made Workers unable to Attack last patch, so that isn't an issue anymore

 

[Mailbox]

Main highlight of allowing the Settlers to gain the promotions for the original WorkerMod was the bonus Promotions from Traits. Mobility I from Expansive, and Hardy I from Defensive IIRC (needed Python to pull off the Hardy bonus since you don't want that promotion going to every unit that gets the normal free promotion of Defensive trait). It was also nifty as a bonus for those rare times that you happened to have a settler sitting around for a while (waiting on a new support team, or looking for a new spot when the AI beat you to your initial target and whatnot).

Wouldn't giving the Worker Unticombat Hardy I just require XML? (I need to edit the Defensive trait to give homeland to Workers anyways).

Mailbox: I know you aren't built for FF, but when/if you ever are, the Training idea would work well with <bStackEffect>, a promotion field which allows you to recieve a promotion repeatedly. Though it would be best with a ramping cost tied to it. I think I might add such a thing to my worklist, as I might find a good use for it myself

I like the ramping cost in terms of time, it's a good way to make units better if they're just sitting around but keeps them from getting too powerful.

You also might need to block workers from rescuing Brigit. Not sure if you allow them to gain enough XP to hit level 15 under a charismatic leader. Though if I remember right Kael made Workers unable to Attack last patch, so that isn't an issue anymore

I'm thinking of giving workers more attack promotions (the partisan line) in general so I'll make sure I add a block in python or just make sure the bonuses don't come until much later in the game.

 

[xienwolf]

The way the XML is set up, all free promotions listed for a trait go to all Unitcombats listed for the trait. So you cannot say "Give Archers Drill 1, and Melee Combat 1", as it would instead give Combat 1 and Drill 1 to all Archers and all Melee. So to do a selective second promotion you have to use python (and a second bit of python to fix the tooltip to display both promotions)

 

[Mailbox]

Ah, damn. I thought it was set up so that you could do multiple unitcombats different promotions.

I'm hoping that I get enough free time to do the tech changes sometime soon, because they should be the last thing I need before I implement the "Badboy rating". I've been playing Crusader Kings and having a natural brake on your expansion makes the game both interesting and challenging, instead of the way that Civ lets one player get huge or wipe out entire civilizations without any negative consequences.

The way I'm thinking I'm going to implement it is via a simple Python hook that adds a diplomatic malus to civs that get too aggressive or big compared to the other civs in the world. That way, wars will have to be over just 1-2 cities and won't be the deathknell of a civilization right off the bat, since the other civs will pick up that one is becoming a threat (including the human). Hopefully this will make the expansion phase slower and lead to more meaningful wars and AI cooperation.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

mailbox, your ideas sound definitely refreshing. keep up the great work you're doing, this modmod will certainly make the ffh2 experience a lot better once you get it done

 

[PinkPikachu]

Just a little suggestion, Chopping should be Moved to Crafting. People used to use primitive axes made of wood and stone to cut wood, which would lend itself to crafting. However, I'd give the chopping a huge time penalty until mining is researched, and then speed it up with the advent of Copper.

Also, is this compatible with the most recent patch? (I believe the current patch is g)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I second this suggestion. and I'd love, absolutely LOVE, a way of clearing jungles waaaay before sanitation or fire mana. as it stands, jungle start = doom unles you are playing FF lizards.

 

[Wauthan]

Thirded. One of the strengths of the OrbiMod was (is?) breaking the forest/jungle grip of doom. I understand the reasoning behind the feature but being able to "terraform" your cities early makes the early game a lot less tedious. Earlier wind- and watermills, like in FF, would also be appreciated.

 

[Caradoc]

I forget -- what patch level do you need for this?

 

[Mailbox]

I had already moved chopping to Mining, because I feel that no civ should have the ability right off the bat. As for jungle cutting, I might move it to Bronze Working as to keep them a little inconvenient but not as crippling as a tech like Sanitation. I'm also probably going to move the extra food at Sanitation further back into the tech tree since it's already so powerful if beelined (unless I decide to cut farm complexes).

This will also go with a fix to farm complexes, I've had nothing but trouble with their graphics and I'm sorely tempted to just cut them out all together. I'll probably then raise the discovery chance of farms to compensate in the long term. I'm actually thinking of cutting a lot of the upgrades and just giving tech bonuses because the art is the same anyways and I've boosted a lot of the original improvements enough.

Watermills and Windmills are a bonus for Advanced Woodworking (formerly Bowyers), since it was a weak tech anyways. Construction is pretty strong as it is and the archery line needs all the help that it can get. Add that to the fact that I've made Windmills and Watermills stronger and them coming in so early could be overpowered. I'll just let them be another gem in the Archery/Carpentry line.

MEM should work all the way to .33g since Kael hasn't changed any of the files that I've modified recently.

I'm also probably going to move MEM to FF (I've already done the code work) because I can do a lot more with Vehem's code. Also I figure that most people who try mods use FF so it might expand my user base. I'll try to maintain a FFH2 base version as well.