Making a Historiographical distinction between Middle and Dark Ages

Yui108

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Do you guys think it should be done? Normally I would put my Dark Ages


(Dark)476 Fall of Rome - 800 Crowning of Charlgemane/ 843 Battle of Verdun
(Middle)800/843 - 1453 (Fall of Constantinople, Printing of the Bible, end of the Hundred Years War)
 
Most reputable historians wouldn't use the term "Dark Ages". Better to talk about the early Middle Ages and the high Middle Ages. I don't really see the value of trying to specify single points of transition either - terms such as "Middle Ages" may be broadly useful but they are inevitably vague and lack clear boundaries. It's like trying to pinpoint the exact moment you become old.
 
It's like trying to pinpoint the exact moment you become old.
70! Just kidding. Making era distinctions can be fun though.
 
You mean the Greek Dark Ages? Well, there's the classical period and all that in between.
 
So are you arguing that at 11:59pm, 31 December 800, everything changed?

What do you mean ? Every distinction is arbitrary - and makes more sense in some geographic areas than others. My point is, there are three distinct eras with transition periods between them. If you want to get down to where exactly one ends and the other begins - we can fine tune it as much as you want. However it just so happens this might be a pretty good place to start:

KAROLVS IMP AVG ("Carolus Imperator Augustus")
Reign 768 – 814
Coronation 25 December 800
 
What do you mean ? Every distinction is arbitrary - and makes more sense in some geographic areas than others. My point is, there are three distinct eras with transition periods between them. If you want to get down to where exactly one ends and the other begins - we can fine tune it as much as you want. However it just so happens this might be a pretty good place to start:

KAROLVS IMP AVG ("Carolus Imperator Augustus")
Reign 768 – 814
Coronation 25 December 800
Heretics and northern barbarians fellating each other with titles is hardly a large-scale macrohistorical event.
 
Coronation 25 December 800

What Dachs said.

The problem with periodisation is that it's very difficult to make distinct demarcations between any two "eras" for something so general like "history" or even "European history". After all, what did Charlemagne have to do with England? Or in Poland? Aachen was peanuts compared to what they had in Byzantium.

As I argued in my essay (which I had already shamelessly plugged), it is difficult to just pick a year and expect it to cover everything. In fact, most historians today tend to put circa in front of any period demarcations as an attempt to prevent this creation of an artificial border.

If you look at "early modern" and "medieval" historians, many of them still see AD 1500 as a barrier which can't be crossed and rarely bother even looking into it. Not to mention 1500 is a pretty boring year, Europe-wise.

My argument is setting such arbitrary boundaries can be slightly dangerous and as historians, one must always be mindful that these boundaries aren't holy borders.
 
And who cares? Western history is the most interesting anyway.

:lol:

Anyways,

Dark Ages: c.AD 400 - AD 900
Middle Ages: c.900 - 1200
High Middle Ages: c.1200 - 1400

Personally, though, I prefer to call the whole period between c.AD300 - c.AD1400 "Medieval".
 
Heretics and northern barbarians fellating each other with titles is hardly a large-scale macrohistorical event.

The Pope is a heretic?
 
And who cares? Western history is the most interesting anyway.

Yeah, and when you guys were busy scratching the ground for food, Asians were... Well, you know the story.
 
The Pope is a heretic?
Last I heard, adding in "extras" to Christianity is considered heresy. You know, extras like filioque.
 
Heretics and northern barbarians fellating each other with titles is hardly a large-scale macrohistorical event.

Who said the 'datestamp' itself had to be a traumatic or wonderful event to the world ? When Constantinople fell it was little more than a glorified Venetian-Genose trading post. But it effectively marks the end of an era, just as the official end of the empty shell of a Roman Empire does, just as the accession of a semi-literate barbarian as first Holy Roman Emperor over a disorganized collection of fiefdoms marks the beginning of another. It's easy to minimize the event itself, but a judicious choice coincides with other trends. 1455 happens to coincide with the end of the Hundred Years War, when feudal cavalry no longer dominated the battlefield, after the bubonic plagues, and the beginning of the bourgeosie.

What Dachs said.

The problem with periodisation is that it's very difficult to make distinct demarcations between any two "eras" for something so general like "history" or even "European history". After all, what did Charlemagne have to do with England? Or in Poland? Aachen was peanuts compared to what they had in Byzantium.

....
My argument is setting such arbitrary boundaries can be slightly dangerous and as historians, one must always be mindful that these boundaries aren't holy borders.

I appreciate the point you make, others including myself have said as much. We can mark it c. 800 or circa 850 or whatever. We know the pace of development in some areas of Europe wasn't the same as in the south, but it seems like a lot of trouble to be so wary against the dangers of setting boundaries. It's easy to be imprecise and vague, but are three three sufficiently distinct eras in European medieval history ? If we are going to bother defining them, then scholars might as well agree on a convenient frame of reference. I disagree with the 'official' breakdown by centuries: 500-1000, 1000-1300, 1300-1500.

The 'Dark Age' was a period of great instability, chaos, and few historical records for much of Europe, during which migrating tribal societies established kingdoms on the ruins of an empire thay had effectively obliterated. Those that would survive this period entrenched their language and became the foundation of many modern European states.

After Charlemagne's accession his empire stretched from Croatia to Catalonia, a large part of Christian Europe that survived the onslaught of Muslim Arabs, pagan Vikings, Avars, Magyars etc. It also confirmed the power and influence of the Catholic Church in western Europe, and marks the transition of tribal societies to feudalism. The trend was echoed in England with Egbert and Alfred the Great around the same time, whose Christian kingdom was preserved by the time it changed hands to Canute and William I. Before that, Bede is one of the only lights illuminating England's Dark Age. It was also around this time that the Byzantines took the offensive against the Abassids, and northern Spain held on to begin the reconquista. Arbitrary or not, it is sufficiently distinct from the previous era and the next.
 
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